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DO 17 raising

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For give me for being ignorant on this subject but why is £350,000 being spent on raising a plane thats proable only claim to fame is it bombed a chip shop. Why not let enthusiasts in Germany sort it out if its of such great importance

Once its up and out of the water it will cost an arm and leg to preserve it then what it has no relavance to the Uk

The only thing this operation will do is kudos to the the people carring out this recovery not preserving the memory of the the people who lost their lifes purely showing that it can be done to me now its grave robbing

Edited by cosrec

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Mr Cosrec, If someone or an organisation whiches to do 'whatever' pray tell me why is it down to you to object ?

It is not your money or effort that is being used........

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It's only one of two, known, surviving Dorniers, a Battle of Britain combat veteran, an important historical artefact.

When it's recovered, it'll be the only one displayed anywhere in the world, as the other survivor (A 215 B-5 nightfighter) is in a Dutch seal sanctuary.

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we are all equal to have an opinion, if my parents were alive they would probably say bearing in mind my mum survived the blitz and lost a lot of good friends and my dad who drove a tank transporter through nth africa and italy for 4 years who also lost good mates, bury the ****ing thing down another 60 feet, I also agree about the amount of money its costing does anyone know who is paying the bill, I agree in saving stuff but where does that stop. Am putting on the tin hat awaiting the flak and expect to get expelled for swearing, have a good one fredm

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WW2 history has many facets, lottery cash does not come easy for projects.

 

We now have the Google Blitz census map for London :-

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2243951/The-astonishing-interactive-map-EVERY-bomb-dropped-London-Blitz.html

 

Depends on what you consider is WW2 history worthy of preservation.

 

In NE where I live (S/W Co. Durham) there were quite a few incendary & oil bombs dropped - no trace today other than the odd IB casing in private hands, you see the photograph when a local owner takes it into a primary school history lesson.

 

Myself - since teens - I have been interested where the HE bombs landed , info. often only available word of mouth Tthat generation are now dead) any trace left ? - not often , at best a deep water filled hole with a stock-proof fence around.

 

----

 

The house I have lived for the last 20 years , when digging the garden I kept picking up bits of metal , pondering the curved shape & ragged edges , muttering - no bombs dropped around here & kept chucking them in the beck LoL

 

Then one day I came across this :-

 

http://www.ne-diary.bpears.org.uk/

 

In particular :-

 

Monday, 28th/Tuesday, 29th October 1940 N422

 

00.40 .. Co Durham.. Howden Bank.. One HE fell at Howden Bank leaving a large crater. No injuries - windows of the local Police Sergeant's house broken.

 

I had a sinking feeling , my sons - I once heard refer to the private owned pair of semi up the hill as - the police Sergeants houses (because the locals still did) , also that they had swimmed in a deep pool that is fenced off . This hole is incorrectly described on post WW2 O.S. maps as a colliery reservoir !

 

So - here we have WW2 history that has looked after itself for the last 70 years at no cost , probably never be filled in . Possibly in 50 years time - may need a lottery grant for preservation as the last known WW2 bomb hole left in Co. Durham !

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Hey ruxy ..many years ago my Dads sister lived in Gloucester and whenever we visited we'd traipse out into the back garden to see the 'bomb damage' from one of the raids that hit the city .it wasn't much to see mind you ..there was a just a large chunk missing from one of the stone window sills with a corresponding gouge in the brickwork where a large piece of shrapnel had hit the house one night...like I said...not much at all in the grand scheme of things.... but it did somehow bring the war a lot closer to a fascinated 10 year old lad :)

I have no firm opinion on the recovery of the Do17 other than to say I guess if someones happy to pay ?...then it's going to happen one way of another ....

Interesting to hear the argument that it's a 'war grave'... it quite probably is....but ..

..if we were talking about a Tiger or a Panther or a Sherman that someone had just found buried in a meadow in France?....would the same be said of that??

I know the odds are, that the unfortunate crew would maybe have been recovered from a tank but....they might not have been ?......so.... should such a find also be left alone????

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I personally think that if somebody is willing to use their own money to bring it up, then it's up to them.

Like most of us, I had family that fought in WW2 and we all lived in the east end of London - we got well bombed, but saying that its still a hunk of metal littering the sea bed at the moment, and if its raising makes more people aware of what occurred 70 odd years ago and the sacrifices made, that's a good thing.

 

this is just my twopence worth and I am not arguing with other people's views.

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Firstly, the money for the project has come from the National Heritage Memorial Fund and a large number of private donations. In fact there is still a link on the RAF Museum website for people to donate because as others have said it will take a while to preserve it- the first part will involve it living in two hydration tunnels and will not be open to the public for about two months.

 

Secondly,

to me now its grave robbing

 

Just to reassure people

 

During the action on August 26th 1940 Dornier 17Z-2 ‘5K+AR’ (Werke Nummer 1160) carried four

crew members. Their individual names and roles were as follows:

1/ Willi Effmert – Pilot

2/ Hermann Ritzel - Observer

3/ Helmut Reinhardt - Radio Operator

4/ Heinz Huhn - Gunner

Only Willi Effmert and Hermann Ritzel survived and both became prisoners-of-war. Helmut

Reinhardt and Heinz Huhn both lost their lives, their bodies being washed ashore in Holland and

the UK respectively. Helmut Reinhardt now lies in Block BQ, Row 6, Grave 136 in the German

Cemetery at Ysselsteyn. Heinz Huhn lies in Block 1, Row 11, Grave 405 in the German Cemetery

at Cannock Chase, Staffordshire.

Combined research efforts from the RAF Museum, historian Chris Goss and the BBC have not

found any traces of family from the surviving crew members.

 

A lot of research was done to ensure that the aircraft was identified in order to ascertain the crew and their fates. Had there been the chance of bodies on board the MoD would likely have declared the site a war grave and it would have been out of bounds.

 

Those looking to keep up to date the RAF Museum have set up a web page here : http://www.rafmuseum.org/dornier

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Keep up the good work, part of which is keeping history alive , especially for the younger generation when this more recent history is off the syllabus. That is reason enough to bring it up and preserve it.

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When I was a nipper the lady next door and her husband used to say that during the Manchester blitz they had to run out at night and cover the incendiary (spelling)? bombs with sandbags. They have both passed away (thirty years ago) that little snippet almost died with them. More of those mundane things have already gone out of living memory.

 

I know where corsec is coming from I'm not particularly in favour of the Tank Museums efforts with the Tiger Tank when we have British vehicles not running and rusting in the storage yards. As collecting goes I can understand where the RAF museum and the Tank Museum our coming from, they want a complete collection that shows the victors side and the losing side of WW2.

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Quite right it is not up to me to object but i am allowed an opinion.

being a one off dont make something priceless

the item that comes off the seabed wont bear any resembalance to the object that flew 70 years ago unless more vast amounts of money are spent stopping it turning to a pile of aluminium and ferric oxide. even then joe public wont recognise it for what it is.

I dont believe the operation will bring to light any scientific discoveries in the design of the craft or how to preserve it.

No i see no other reason for it to be salvaged other than its there and doable at a price.

One other thing its being recovered in one piece who will get the job of chopping it up to transport it to Hendon.

Although i had a chunter about a 1:1 scale model of a tank on here i think if the museum wants an example of Dornier it would have been better of with a model at a fraction of the cost

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I don't think it is the fact that it is a rare machine rather that it TOOK PART IN THE BLITZ and is frozen as it was that very day that makes it worth saving. Imagine you were learning about the blitz in Hendon, walked through a door and in front of you is an aircraft that actually bombed England in that period, you can't replicate that. For the enthusiast it would be of interest that it is a rare Bomber, but to 99% of the GP a German bomber is a German bomber.

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The work done at Brooklands with the 'Loch Ness' Wellington shows that an aircraft doesn't have to be restored to flying condition to make a worthwhile exhibit.

 

I can't think of a better memorial to the Defiant crews who went up day after day during the Battle of France and the BoB in an aircraft with no forward-firing armament. Once the Luftwaffe had learned to distinguish it from a Hurricane, it was an extremely vulnerable fighter.

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Hendon also has 3 aircraft on display as recovered

Gladiator, Halifax and Hurricane.

I feel that they serve as a reminder of the reality of the times, far better than a nice shiny factory fresh restoration.

 

Mike

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An interesting question, whether one should spend cash on the enemy's artefacts.

 

I live in Lublin, a city in eastern Poland, and about a mile up the road from where I am typing this is the former Majdanek Concentration Camp. Much Polish money money, and money from elsewhere, has gone to maintaining it for the past 70 years, and will continue to do so. I have no idea how much the Polish government has spent on its many Nazi-artefact concentration camps, but it must be a lot as the buildings are primarily timber. They choose to remember what is theirs and what is their enemy's, partly because in that way it stops people from forgetting or denying the existence of such things.

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the item that comes off the seabed wont bear any resembalance to the object that flew 70 years ago unless more vast amounts of money are spent stopping it turning to a pile of aluminium and ferric oxide. even then joe public wont recognise it for what it is.

The aircraft as it currently is, is substantially intact for it's age- intact enough that it could be clearly identified from the sonar images. Having spent the majority of the past 70 years buried in the sand has protected it to a large part from the tidal action and marine growth, it has also ensured a lower level of ambient oxygen than just sitting on the seabed. The footage from the initial dive showed that corrosion was minimal.

As I said in my previous post, for the first few months at least it will live in hydration tunnels - the RAF Museum are working with a team of conservators on methods of preservation. Much of the money for this process has already been donated by a number of organisations, including at least one aircraft manufacturer. This is not just about obtaining an aircraft, but about developing conservation techniques that can be used on other vehicles in the future, by other museums, not just the RAF Museum.

 

One other thing its being recovered in one piece who will get the job of chopping it up to transport it to Hendon.

Actually, last I heard it was coming up in two main pieces- the fuselage, with tail will come up as one piece, and the wings will come up as a second. The Dornier 17 (among a large number of planes) was designed to manufactured in that way- the fuselage would be made as a single piece and then the wing centre section would be inserted into the gap on top. The plan as i heard it would be to attempted to remove the rivets holding the wing centre section on. I believe they may be bringing the engines up seperately.

 

Although i had a chunter about a 1:1 scale model of a tank on here i think if the museum wants an example of Dornier it would have been better of with a model at a fraction of the cost

Surely by that logic there is no point in anyone spending any money on restoring or preserving any vehicles? Just use one of those new 3D printers and print out a 1:1 scale model of one, 'cause that's going to be a lot cheaper that preserving a vehicle. In fact, we could go one step better, why bother keeping any historical artefact, we could just have pictures of them in folders as it would take up a lot less space and would be a lot cheaper to maintain.

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Quite right it is not up to me to object but i am allowed an opinion.

being a one off dont make something priceless

the item that comes off the seabed wont bear any resembalance to the object that flew 70 years ago unless more vast amounts of money are spent stopping it turning to a pile of aluminium and ferric oxide. even then joe public wont recognise it for what it is.

I dont believe the operation will bring to light any scientific discoveries in the design of the craft or how to preserve it.

No i see no other reason for it to be salvaged other than its there and doable at a price.

One other thing its being recovered in one piece who will get the job of chopping it up to transport it to Hendon.

Although i had a chunter about a 1:1 scale model of a tank on here i think if the museum wants an example of Dornier it would have been better of with a model at a fraction of the cost

 

I suppose that if previous generations had thought this way, then there would be no Norman Castles, nor a Hadrian's Wall, or even many of the 16th century country houses we hold today as our precious birthright.

That aircraft alone is probably worth a couple of castles. I went some years ago to see the remains of the very last Blackburn Skua, rescued from a Norwegian Fiord, fantastic. Much better, I think, to spend the cash on a project like that, then give it away to nuclear powers as so called 'foreign aid'??

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I suppose that if previous generations had thought this way, then there would be no Norman Castles, nor a Hadrian's Wall, or even many of the 16th century country houses we hold today as our precious birthright.

That aircraft alone is probably worth a couple of castles. I went some years ago to see the remains of the very last Blackburn Skua, rescued from a Norwegian Fiord, fantastic. Much better, I think, to spend the cash on a project like that, then give it away to nuclear powers as so called 'foreign aid'??

Quite right, you could also say that instead of restoring an old military vehicle, just make a repro one instead. It would be just as good as a piece of tangible history as the original that was there at the time, that era, wouldn't it.....?

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I suppose that if previous generations had thought this way, then there would be no Norman Castles, nor a Hadrian's Wall, or even many of the 16th century country houses we hold today as our precious birthright.

That aircraft alone is probably worth a couple of castles. I went some years ago to see the remains of the very last Blackburn Skua, rescued from a Norwegian Fiord, fantastic. Much better, I think, to spend the cash on a project like that, then give it away to nuclear powers as so called 'foreign aid'??

Well said !

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Wrong i am all for the restoration of old vehicles but i am also of a mind that sometimes common sense says enough is enough. This is when the item retrieved bears no resambalnce to the item its supposed to be. To me common sensense says a multi metal structure will not have faired well after 70years submergance in sea water and galvanic reaction. I hope for the museums sake i am wrong but despite quotes of it being in good condition i think it will be worse than most peoples percieved idea of good.

Below an extract from an an article on this topic.

 

Underwater footage of the wreck shows it largely intact. Some parts are missing - the bomb bay doors, the cockpit glazing, the undercarriage doors. Probably these were torn off during the forced landing. But the fuselage, the wings, the engines and propellers are still there. And so is the landing gear, complete with fully inflated tyres.

But Bob Peacock, the local diver and marine archaeologist who first found the wreck and shot the footage, says it's in a delicate condition. Lifting and conserving it won't be easy.

At the German Technical Museum in Berlin, they have considerable experience of raising WWII planes from water. The museum's Prof Holger Steinle showed me the aluminium tail section of a Focke Wulf Condor. It was unrecognisable, badly eaten away, and held together largely by the limpets and barnacles attached to it.

Dorniers too, he says, were made of aluminium, which corrodes badly in sea water. He warns his colleagues in Britain not to expect too much. "In 20, 30 years you will find nothing from that Dornier. So try it. But you should not be highly optimistic. Do it, but don't start dreaming too early."

Also the article states a frame is being constructed to lift the plane in one go i guessed this included engines so have they ripped of on impact or rotted off with time. So Is it a fairly well preserved £325.000 + final bill craft or a split teabag ?? we should know soon

Edited by cosrec

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article-2318808-199AF7DC000005DC-242_634x480.jpg

 

Looking at the sonar image, not only are the engines there, but the props are too.

Its state of preservation will depend on how long it's been covered by the sand.

Do you criticise the likes of Amac for his efforts in restoring a Loyd Carrier, arguably from a far worse state than this Dornier?

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