WW2 British paint code

[john fox]

Pardon my ignorance I have tried searching for an answer already

 

What is the (BSC) paint code number for the "green" used on British vehicles NW Europe 1944 - 45 and what is its proper name so I could ask for it by name only if necessary

 

My C8 is in Nato green at the moment and as such is very obvious to those in the know

[Rick W]

The first tub of paint I got for the C8, I bought from Warpaint aka RR Motor Services.

Eggshell Olive Drab. The second tub of paint I acquired off them is NATO olive green. On ringing them up to ask about this and ask if they could swap the tins over they told me that NATO olive green and the Olive Drab are the same paint. Can someone clarify?

[79x100]

The story about the colours being the same makes it sound as if they're being economical with the truth. There were even differences between U.S. and British olive drab.

 

To get the full story, you really need Mike Starmer's "British Army Colours and Disruptive Camouflage in the UK, France and NW Europe 1936 - 1945"

 

http://www.hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?t=6759

 

Mike refers to S.C.C. (Standard Camouflage Colour) No. 15 Olive Drab, classified as Amendment No.1 to BS.987C in December 1944. This probably doesn't help much which is why it's really necessary to read through the whole thing. The book includes hand painted colour chips to help with matching.

 

I suggest talking to The Vintage Paint Company (I thought they advertised here but can't find it) - They went to great lengths to match my 1940 Khaki Green No.3

[armoured_smiler]

In the meantime if you want the NATO green not to be detectable, then just 'waxoyl' the paint surface, this adds a 'brown' to the green making more into olive drab and the added bonus the waxoyl will creep into any scatches stopping rust starting

Edited July 12, 2023 by armoured_smiler

[ruxy]

Post WW2  - did the British Army  DRAB  stay the same  - as used late 1960's and up to about 1978 when  NATO Green  IRR finish was introduced  ?

For reference - I kept a gallon can of paint manufactured by the Walpamur Co.

This is the reference on the can  -  H1/8010-99-224-5482 PAINT WAR EQUIPMENT MATT-SPRAYING OLIVE DRAB, BSC 298 The WALPAMUR

[10FM68]

I may be wrong, but I think paint, war equipment wasn't a vehicle paint.  It was the paint approved for 'bits and pieces' such as jerricans, cookers, AEH pins, etc, etc.  The SCC15 British olive drab officially finished in the late 1940s, but lingered on well after that, particularly with older vehicles with low useage which didn't, therefore, require repainting.  So, for many years it will have appeared alongside DBG.  It isn't, though, the same OD as then appeared in the 60s replacing DBG, that was a new colour.

I can't acknowledge copyright of these as I don't know it, but you can see clearly in this photo from a TA unit (Westminster Dragoons) in the 1950s that they were running SCC15 alongside DBG - the rear  DAC - (though, note, they have given it a semi-gloss finish, not untypical of peacetime soldiering), while the photo of the Centurion in the background of the VW photo shows it to be painted a lighter shade than the middle bronze green of the VW, again suggesting that it is in SCC15.

[ruxy]

On 7/12/2023 at 10:55 PM, 10FM68 said:

I may be wrong, but I think paint, war equipment wasn't a vehicle paint.  It was the paint approved for 'bits and pieces' such as jerricans, cookers, AEH pins, etc, etc.  The SCC15 British olive drab officially finished in the late 1940s, but lingered on well after that, particularly with older vehicles with low useage which didn't, therefore, require repainting.  So, for many years it will have appeared alongside DBG.  It isn't, though, the same OD as then appeared in the 60s replacing DBG, that was a new colour.

I can't acknowledge copyright of these as I don't know it, but you can see clearly in this photo from a TA unit (Westminster Dragoons) in the 1950s that they were running SCC15 alongside DBG - the rear  DAC - (though, note, they have given it a semi-gloss finish, not untypical of peacetime soldiering), while the photo of the Centurion in the background of the VW photo shows it to be painted a lighter shade than the middle bronze green of the VW, again suggesting that it is in SCC15.

'bits and pieces'   - the problem with that theory is that I doubt if the army would issue  , 5L  of  Drab  SPRAYING  for  Jerry cans, pickaxe helves , etc. etc.    Often the same product is sold to different markets - such as trade & DIY in different can packaging    (very recently I have come across  Everbuild ,  triple action clear wood preserver , in 5 L low £ cost  & £ printed , the same stuff sold as Lumberjack triple action preserver in a mor expensive £ & attractive appearance can.   With Drab - often due to age & owners rubbing in oil - it's a case of does it matter & who knows the truth ?    This Walpamur Drab could have come from a MOD Misc. auction (I purchased gallons there - Catterick ,but had to go to a hotel at Tadcaster to bid) .  More than probably it came from one of several contractors to the MOD somewhere on Tyneside  - Vickers @ Scotswood  to a small unit near Blaydon/Stella rail crossing - who manufactured a few things inc. Mule panniers  - for over 1200 years to the bitter end @ Hong Kong.  The can was given to me abt. 1982  by the owner of Albany Motors (MOD recovery contractor/garage service)  Gateshead,  all he had used was sufficient to smarten his wheels on his MUTT  (I think at that stage the body  was still in livery of Israel Army). He was a leading light in the N.E. Military vehicle group and this Drab (and others) were being applied to WW2 & later MV's  - American , British and the odd other inc. ISTR two French (Ex-Falklands Argentive).    M.V.   Drab  - it's all a complex subject - they fade , not all at the rate of  NATO  IRR , and visitors to shows - hardly any would know or take an interest.

[fv1609]

On 7/12/2023 at 10:55 PM, 10FM68 said:

I may be wrong, but I think paint, war equipment wasn't a vehicle paint.  It was the paint approved for 'bits and pieces'

You are not wrong at all. There was no OD paint listed as a "vehicle paint" in VAOS/COSA Section H1(a) Paints dopes & varnishes, this is further confirmed by EMER WORKSHOPS N 251. Extracts below show that there were a range of specific OD paints for particular purposes including war equipment, steel helmets, jerricans & storage boxes. There is no entry for OD under vehicle paints.

[BC312]

All UK government paints for GPO Army Navy and Airforce all came under the BS381C paint code system which started during the early 1930s, so if you wanted to paint something in Nato green you would use BS381C 285 Nato green etc. Of course the chart has changed colours over the years and has amended and deleted some colours now not used. These colours also include ordnance as well. If something was made or manufactured at a factory the paint spec was also specified in BS381C colour, what happens after the made item leaves the factory is a matter of what is available in the camps and institutions they end up. Remember a lot of the interior of most houses before and after the war were drab browns and greens,. A spare tin of household paint on camp to enhance the camouflage of a WW2 vehicle could be knocked up to resemble paint not in stores, may not be a perfect match but near on, as long as it matched the spec of the camouflage manual. 

[ruxy]

WW2   A.R.P.   Colour Chart  !

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/bygones/10885640.walpamurs-ingenious-paints-helped-win-two-wars/

MOD new equipment contractors today - at Contract stage / pre-manufacturing meeting would be given - specifications of paints to be used  &  approved list of paint manufacturers (probably 5/6 listed ,  Trimite  & W.J. Leigh + other top firms).  Dry/Wet film thickness ,  Preparations such as blasting to SIS  , probably white metal,  conditions for application - such as humidity.   Colour coat - as a  BS381C  ,  I doubt if there would be mention of any NSN - that would be for when introduced to service.

[10FM68]

On 7/14/2023 at 11:54 AM, ruxy said:

'bits and pieces'   - the problem with that theory is that I doubt if the army would issue  , 5L  of  Drab  SPRAYING  for  Jerry cans, pickaxe helves , etc. etc.    Often the same product is sold to different markets - such as trade & DIY in different can packaging    (very recently I have come across  Everbuild ,  triple action clear wood preserver , in 5 L low £ cost  & £ printed , the same stuff sold as Lumberjack triple action preserver in a mor expensive £ & attractive appearance can.   With Drab - often due to age & owners rubbing in oil - it's a case of does it matter & who knows the truth ?    This Walpamur Drab could have come from a MOD Misc. auction (I purchased gallons there - Catterick ,but had to go to a hotel at Tadcaster to bid) .  More than probably it came from one of several contractors to the MOD somewhere on Tyneside  - Vickers @ Scotswood  to a small unit near Blaydon/Stella rail crossing - who manufactured a few things inc. Mule panniers  - for over 1200 years to the bitter end @ Hong Kong.  The can was given to me abt. 1982  by the owner of Albany Motors (MOD recovery contractor/garage service)  Gateshead,  all he had used was sufficient to smarten his wheels on his MUTT  (I think at that stage the body  was still in livery of Israel Army). He was a leading light in the N.E. Military vehicle group and this Drab (and others) were being applied to WW2 & later MV's  - American , British and the odd other inc. ISTR two French (Ex-Falklands Argentive).    M.V.   Drab  - it's all a complex subject - they fade , not all at the rate of  NATO  IRR , and visitors to shows - hardly any would know or take an interest.

Gosh Tony!  Where to start!  What a fascinating tale of the purchase of a tin of paint!  You clearly have an impressive memory.  But, you are quite right in that the MoD (or, more accurately the WD as we're talking about the late 40s and 50s rather than post-64) wouldn't issue paint for pickaxe helves as they were not supposed to be painted - they were supposed to have been oiled, but there were many exceptions in service - and even more in preservation - but they did issue paint for other bits and pieces as I have said - Clive mentions a prime example: helmets.  Others include those handy 1-gallon oil cans which turn up on eBay from time to time to this day.  Radios, of course, and lots of other stuff.  So I am happy with that piece of advice. 

I'm not sure I follow quite which can you are referring to when you say you were given it in 1982 - presumably this isn't the one you bought from Catterick, via the hotel in Tadcaster - home of John Smiths, I believe!  But, sadly, the 'leading light in the NE MVG' isn't accurate in applying OD paint willy nilly to any MV from the US, the UK or Israel - there were significant differences and, in my opinion, it is worth taking the time to sort it out properly.  Though, certainly, many people attending shows wouldn't know the difference either and, as you have cautioned me before, one can be too much of a rivet counter!  But, when it comes to British military kit  it is nice to get things right or thereabouts.

[10FM68]

14 hours ago, BC312 said:

All UK government paints for GPO Army Navy and Airforce all came under the BS381C paint code system which started during the early 1930s, so if you wanted to paint something in Nato green you would use BS381C 285 Nato green etc. Of course the chart has changed colours over the years and has amended and deleted some colours now not used. These colours also include ordnance as well. If something was made or manufactured at a factory the paint spec was also specified in BS381C colour, what happens after the made item leaves the factory is a matter of what is available in the camps and institutions they end up. Remember a lot of the interior of most houses before and after the war were drab browns and greens,. A spare tin of household paint on camp to enhance the camouflage of a WW2 vehicle could be knocked up to resemble paint not in stores, may not be a perfect match but near on, as long as it matched the spec of the camouflage manual. 

Oh that it was that simple!  Sadly, this wasn't the case for WWII paint.  Most of the standard camouflage colours didn't have BS numbers.  They were 'described' instead - with vague terms such as 'tea with milk', 'which can mean all sorts - Army tea with milk can be distinctly orange while that consumed by Grandma has an altogether lighter hue!  And, of course, NATO green is a relatively new colour on the BS 285 list (perhaps not yet 50 years old) and every NATO country has its own interpretation of what a NATO green is!  And, it has to be said, even the professionals struggle to match batches of the same paint as I discovered to my cost when respraying my Land Rover!  The picture below shows a 'NATO Green' from the same producer but from batches perhaps six months apart!

[10FM68]

2 hours ago, ruxy said:

WW2   A.R.P.   Colour Chart  !

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/bygones/10885640.walpamurs-ingenious-paints-helped-win-two-wars/

MOD new equipment contractors today - at Contract stage / pre-manufacturing meeting would be given - specifications of paints to be used  &  approved list of paint manufacturers (probably 5/6 listed ,  Trimite  & W.J. Leigh + other top firms).  Dry/Wet film thickness ,  Preparations such as blasting to SIS  , probably white metal,  conditions for application - such as humidity.   Colour coat - as a  BS381C  ,  I doubt if there would be mention of any NSN - that would be for when introduced to service.

What a fascinating find, Tony!  I well remember dark green tins of Walpamur from my childhood.  This ARP chart, though, shows paint for buildings rather than vehicles, but they do illustrate the absence of BS numbers nicely.  And, of course, we're much too early for NSNs - I don't know what year they were introduced but, certainly, not before the formation of NATO, of course.

[10FM68]

On 7/14/2023 at 2:33 PM, fv1609 said:

You are not wrong at all. There was no OD paint listed as a "vehicle paint" in VAOS/COSA Section H1(a) Paints dopes & varnishes, this is further confirmed by EMER WORKSHOPS N 251. Extracts below show that there were a range of specific OD paints for particular purposes including war equipment, steel helmets, jerricans & storage boxes. There is no entry for OD under vehicle paints.

Thank you for that, Clive,  it's certainly complicated!  Nice to see the correct spelling of jerrican illustrated there as well!  Thinking of steel helmets - well, they were a G1098 item rather than personal issue so you moved between units with just your own liner and drew a new helmet on arrival.  So you got to see quite a number of them in the QM's store.  Sometimes they had been crudely repainted - even in bronze green - and they looked really awful - I always ensured I got a decent one in drab!  Not that it really mattered of course because as soon as you got it back to your room it was out with the hessian, boot polish, scrim net (issued separately) and that would be the last you'd see of the paint until you came to hand it in at the end of your posting!  I was lucky in that I didn't have to wear a tortoise (MkIV) for long.  I was posted to a unit which had been armoured so drew a tank helmet which was a much nicer thing to have altogether, so I contrived to keep it thereafter and, in fact, it stayed with me till the end and finally went on eBay last year!  Hope that you enjoyed Builth - I've not been able to drive since April so am having a bit of a quite time (apart from a couple of dramatic 999 calls and two periods in hospital).  Still don't know what the future holds - we'll have to see!

[BC312]

9 hours ago, 10FM68 said:

Oh that it was that simple!  Sadly, this wasn't the case for WWII paint.  Most of the standard camouflage colours didn't have BS numbers.  They were 'described' instead - with vague terms such as 'tea with milk', 'which can mean all sorts - Army tea with milk can be distinctly orange while that consumed by Grandma has an altogether lighter hue!  And, of course, NATO green is a relatively new colour on the BS 285 list (perhaps not yet 50 years old) and every NATO country has its own interpretation of what a NATO green is!  And, it has to be said, even the professionals struggle to match batches of the same paint as I discovered to my cost when respraying my Land Rover!  The picture below shows a 'NATO Green' from the same producer but from batches perhaps six months apart!

I dont suspect any squaddie to know the correct colour code for paint. During WW2 paint was paint, if it was dark green, they called it dark green, if it was brown and it look like it came from a baby's bottom it would be s***brown by the squaddies at the stores. In stores they had paint for different things, and would most probably call the paint related to what it was for, certainly not by the code. In emergencies they had what they had and was made do, if it was Home Guard they had what they could afford or get their hands on. If it look near and done the job. The BS381C code changed a lot over the years, named colours changed, colours were omitted and new ones added. I used Nato green as an example of the coding and was not used during WW2. As for paint manufactures and paint shops today who call themselves experts and professional i spent a year on the phone researching for wrinkle finish paint asking about the paint and paints in general. 90% hadn't a clue about paint, they didn't know much if not hardly anything about BS381C or other codes come to that, so i can see why you got a crap deal, a lot of business amateurs out there, you have to do your home work to get what you want.

[ruxy]

Quote

 

I recall reading in a Jeep book that during WW2 in the USA - a great deal of effort was given to getting the same shade of  Olive Drab across the manufacturers.  I doubt if there was any colour Q.C.  within the UK during this period .  I have had swatches prepared prior to purchasing a few makes of paint - i first try it as a ground coat on wheel rims , if I don't like it - it gets used up for that purpose.   A few years ago - I contacted a leading UK paint manufacturer  (Technical Department) and asked if a particular paint contained silicones (I did not want).  A lady replied and confirmed no silicanes ,  abt. six months later I received a E'mail from same lady who confirmed said paint did contain silicones - a bit late.

[10FM68]

21 hours ago, ruxy said:

I doubt if there was any colour Q.C.  within the UK during this period .  

I am sorry to hear about your poor experience with silicates - as BC312 says, there are more companies out there selling pint than there are companies out there who really understand it. 

But, coming back to the point you make about quality control.  I think certainly the WD were very concerned about QC and made considerable effort to 'get it right.'   'Paint PFU' would have had to meet very stringent standards just as was the case in the USA.  A lot of work was done with industry and research bodies, both to gain consistency and also maintain quality while under pressure to remove from the colour requirement constituents which were in short supply - chrome I think was such an example, making green tricky to produce in quantity. For some reason green was seen as very necessary for aircraft painting hence the army being left with brown! 

 I think the evidence for that is the sheer quantity of detailed directives and instructions for the use of camouflage paint - often with changes being made mere months after the last - implementing those changes at unit level, particularly when instructions also included caveats such as 'use up old stocks of paint first' must have been really frustrating.  Nowadays, it seems that the Army doesn't give a monkey's what their vehicles look like; cost-saving and no longer allowing untrained soldiers to paint vehicles, use spray equipment etc has resulted in an appallingly tatty fleet which certainly wouldn't have been allowed even 30 years ago and probably does nothing for soldiers' general interest in looking after the stuff.  We seemed to be repainting vehicles after every blinking exercise!

But, back in the war when discipline was considerably more rigorous, maintaining standards of turnout, frequency of inspection, emphasis on cleanliness and lower standards of H&S, I am sure that, whenever possible, great efforts to keep unit vehicles at a high standard of turnout was very much seen as evidence of a Commanding Officer's 'grip' on his unit.  The problem would have come, perhaps, with paints which were mixed at unit level.  Unless there was very close supervision, clear guidance and a sample to try to match, keeping up appearances would have been much more problematic and getting a match between different batches mixed would be challenging.  Serious efforts were made to maintain high standards during the war, even on operations once 'out of the line'.  The trouble is, it is difficult to find colour photographs which you can really trust, not something which is being made easier with the 'colorization' process so fashionable at the moment, particularly as much of it is wildly inaccurate!  

[ruxy]

Returning to the originating query  :-

What is the (BSC) paint code number for the "green" used on British vehicles NW Europe 1944 - 45 and what is its proper name so I could ask for it by name only if necessary

My C8 is in Nato green at the moment and as such is very obvious to those in the know

=========================================

The simple truth regarding paint on MV's esp.  WW2   , nobody involved in resto.  took a great deal of interest in  "perfection of colour"  - that is until they got on the internet  (in my case that was I think 1998)  became member on  MV Forums and started reading / asking questions.  There may have been mention in the odd club periodicals.  Service/ex-Service people my have been better informed , esp. if they had left with a bit of looted documents.  Apart from Jeeps , Champ  - Rovers have been my main interest since a 86" - late 1960's.   The earliest comic (and it was very good too) that mainly concerned Land Rovers  , was introduced 1980  -  Overlander 4x4 magazine - I possibly have a full complete set but can't recall any article on the subject.  People who arrived at the m.v. scene this century - arrived late and seem to think the old boys know/knew everything on this subject - they don't.    Thinking back - if you believed much speel at monthly club meetings , then a better plan would have been to finish your pint & leave (the same applied to the experts at M.v. shows).   You stood a fair chance of obtaining sound / reliable info. during the last 25 years - however not over the 30+ years prior.

[BC312]

Looking at a BS381C chart online looks very minimal plus the colours dont match original. You need to get a old chart, you can get this from the British Standards Institute, when i rang them years ago they gave me the run down of the history of BS381C, very interesting, worth contacting them, they may be able to point you in the directions of war time paints. I thought that Light bronze green in a matt would be a late wartime Vehicle colour or deep bronze green for the 1950-60s ferrets before the black and Nato green cammo came about. Deep Bronze green is BS381C 224 it seems there is no Light Bronze green on the chart i was looking at and not the colours they should be. Sea green being one that was used before Nato smoke El deNil.

have a look here https://creativeawards.co.uk/blogs/news/british-standard-colour#:~:text=In 1948%2C shortly after the,on long-established practice".

Edited July 17, 2023 by BC312

[fv1609]

I know nothing about WW2 British paint, which I know is the title of the thread, but at times the painting of British vehicles in the post-war period has been touched upon. This subject has been of great interest to me, here again is a detailed analysis of changes that I compiled a few years ago.

The download link https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y3icx5761al00u9/AACGqQrN2TXeNJfPce5kqLtia?dl=0

Or if you prefer not to download it can be viewed on line here:

https://www.militarylightweight.co.uk/british-army-green-paints/