MV Owners, Reenactors & wearing of uniforms

[Marmite!!]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,2212694,00.html#article_continue

 

 

I think everyone (especially the dressers up) should read this...

 

 

Can you explain this bit please John :dunno:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Having said the above,..............John; did you need to add the 'knock', "esp the Dressers up",..........??

Yes, I do wear a wwii uniform, although I'm certainly not of that age, i carry wwii equipment and drive a wwii vintage vehicle,.............SO ??

I hope, when I'm out and about, talking with folks, I'm not being seen to glorify war, rather hopfully, being seen to honour those who wore said kit 'for real';

If the likes of the British Legion are happy for us to attend their functions, .........and nearly all of whom are ex forces, then I guess I'm doing something right. ;-)

 

Not having a dig, mate

 

 

Andy

 

[Jolly Jeeper]

Yeah, people who dress up in other people's uniforms, badges of rank, decorations whatever... simple really. The point is that some people (like Adam Elsdon in this thread) have been around the block a few times and really suffered through something military while others merely regard it as a hobby or something to step in and out of like the Nazi dressers up in the beer tent at Beltring... some people don't realise that the military thing is very real for many.

 

I'll tell you a story about my late uncle (who I have mentioned here before and who, I'm proud to say, was one of my heroes); he was a Gunner with a Field Regiment of the RA in N.Africa and Italy in WWII. He had a rough time with the 1st Army in Tunisia, a rough time on the Anzio beachhead but came home and went back to his day job as a plumber on the Wirral. He never even took his medals out of the box they came in the post in but he had his polished cap badge on the side board. After he'd retired the 1st Gulf War took place and CNN played it live into our living rooms. My uncle watched a lot of it and at first was fine but suddenly one afternoon it was all too much and he just burst into tears and had something of a nervous breakdown. He'd been bottling all kinds of stuff up for fifty odd years and what's more, my girlfriend of the time worked for the NHS in South Yorkshire and said that he wasn't the only one by a long chalk...

 

(This tale is one of the later paragraphs in something I'm hoping Jack will use as another article for this site when it will be set in context with tales of driving a Morris Quad)

 

Satisfied?

JC

[Jolly Jeeper]

'lets not forget the sacrifices made, by those veterans, so we can pursue our hobby.'

 

Andy, I think that because you have the above on the bottom of your posts, it rules you out of the kind of dressers up I was referring to!

 

JC

[Marmite!!]

'lets not forget the sacrifices made, by those veterans, so we can pursue our hobby.'

 

Andy, I think that because you have the above on the bottom of your posts, it rules you out of the kind of dressers up I was referring to!

 

JC

 

 

& the majority of the reenactors on the WW2 forum have something similar on their signature so they must all be ok then ;-)

 

Yeah, people who dress up in other people's uniforms, badges of rank, decorations whatever... simple really. The point is that some people (like Adam Elsdon in this thread) have been around the block a few times and really suffered through something military while others merely regard it as a hobby or something to step in and out of like the Nazi dressers up in the beer tent at Beltring... some people don't realise that the military thing is very real for many.

 

I think you'll find John that the reenactors probably know more about WW2 & the sacrifices made than a lot of the MV owners, they research the subject thoroughly & most know their stuff... a lot of them are ex-service.. some still serving & you have others like serving policeman & firefighters, we even have one who's a magistrate who live up the road & served in Gulf1... I also know an ex-Para who's a German reenactor in a well know group..

[Jack]

I think the re -enacting topic is a great one and we should discuss it in separate thread if we feel the need - I like it the topic, one of which I have many views.

[da bomb]

I think the re -enacting topic is a great one and we should discuss it in separate thread if we feel the need - I like it the topic, one of which I have many views.

 

 

Go on get it started, should be good! :box:

[Enigma]

I drive a WW2 MV, "dress up", and do some low key re-enactment.

 

I also spend a lot of time with the lads who actually fought in WW2.

 

Last Oct we had the commemmoration of the liberation of Den Bosch (53rd Welch div.).

I used to attend in original uniform but not this year (no medal, no rank). Some people didn't like that,can understand that so left it at home.

However if someone takes offence he should ask me why I wear it and why they object.

 

 

 

Anyway, Veterans came to me to ask why I din't wear the uniform and when I explained they said %$@#@ the ones who objected.

They know I wear it out of RESPECT!!!!

[Markheliops]

Hi all.

 

I tend to think this subject has been discussed over and over and over, etc.

 

I have made my thoughts clear in that if people wish to wear uniform to compliment their MV, I have no objections (being an ex-serviceman) as long as their behaviour does not bring the uniform into disrespect. This includes the wearing of both Allied and Axis uniforms.

 

The only thing that winds me up is when people wear medals and decorations to which they are not entitled to - except when wearing relatives medals at Remembrance parades).

 

However, I do feel this forum was created for the benefit of those who have an interest in Military vehicles and equipment of all eras, whether vehicle owners or not.

 

I am not really comfortable with the forum opening a discussion on war, and the resulting effects on soldiers medical conditions. I as much as anyone understand the effects of war on soldiers and civilians and to be honest, although some may find this an interesting topic, it is not one I feel should be posted on this forum.

 

I am sure there is a forum for discussing these issues but I just don't think the HMVF is the place to do it.

 

I feel the comments in relation to - especially the dressers up - was not meant in the manor it was written. At least I would hope it wasn't.

 

People will take offence when such general terminology is used. This is the danger of posting items which I feel not really relevant to my hobby, and such my participation in the HMVF.

 

Yes the subject should be borne in mind but I would hazard a guess the majority of HMVF members have a very good understanding of what the people who wore the uniforms and the civilians who have experienced the effect of war will have been through.

 

My thoughts only and I'm not bashing anyone but I do feel the mods did the right thing - to enter into these kind of topical areas can lead to harsh words and misquoted paragraphs, hence threatening the good will and excellent spirit of the forum.

 

Markheliops

[Marmite!!]

By popular demand this subject has been split from the PTSD thread....

[Markheliops]

Just to follow from my previous thread -

 

I can't see how bashing people who wear uniforms to complement their vehicles can have a positive effect on our hobby -

 

I would imagine it would have the reverse effect.

 

People tend to knock others when they do not understand what and why other people do the things they do.

 

I think the wearing of uniforms, as long as worn with respect, can only enhance our hobby.

 

The above includes German uniforms.

 

IT'S OUR HOBBY AND OUR PASSION - Let everyone associated with it do their own thing - DONT KNOCK IT, or run the risk of ruining it.

 

Markheliops

[Marmite!!]

We were asked to attend an open day at ATR Pirbright this summer with the MV's & they booked & paid for a 25pdr with WW2 reenactors... didn't have a single complaint....

 

Queens Pageant this year... made up of MV Owners in uniform & Reenactors... we had thanks from the Major of the Household Cavalry & I didn't her Her Majesty complaining ;-)

[Snapper]

I've not knowingly met JC or discussed this subject with him, but I suspect his point about dressing up was right, but things always go awry with emails and posts and we can interpret things in varied ways. I make some of my living snapping people who "dress up" and I think they are bloody brilliant. I wouldn't do it, though - except as an American War Film fan in all the wrong kit - because that is FUNNY (to me). Re-enactors do it for a multiutude of reasons and choose all periods. We know from hatchet man John Sweeney that the great British public should be horrified at members of HM Plod dressing up as Oberwhatsitfuhrers in their own time - but how many times can we be mired in the Schutz Staffel cul-de-sac of doom? I think they should just get on with it, but please don't have autographed pix of Nick Griffin in your lounges. I genuinely think examples of this are rare. But a man's politics is his own business and what "freedom" is all about. The whole variety of re-enactments bamboozle me. I've snapped Croatian paramilitaties and French colonial troopers from the highways of Nam. I've raised a Viva to the volunteers of the International Brigade and wonder what the Jap will do now samurai swords are banned by the state. I don't wear uniforms because I'm 48 and look 55. I do not have the figure for smart BD and have nightmares of my time itching and crying wearing KF. But I do have some lightweights and some very pretty Dutch DPMs which appear when the Beltring mud is over my gunwails. The rest of the time I like to reveal my legs. I have read Spike Milligan. Balls said the crow. Run to the hills (or car park).

 

Re-enactors add colour, detail and glorious eccentricity to what would otherwise be a gloriously detailed and eccentric world of practical mechanics. The two go together like some sort of song involving Crosby and Sinatra. Long may it continue. I draw the line at medals and idiots pretending they're someone off a Medal of Honor PS2 game box lid. Walter Mitty should stick to being the England team manager. Roll on the new season. Please live side by side. The wholly separate issue of veterans and their suffering is not for this forum in essence - but I will tell you about one. He died on 15.12.1992 and spent a life wracked with guilt that the malaria and TB he caught in Iraq (fighting the Raschid Ali uprising of 1941) and India stopped him from being at Anzio where all his mates died. His life was wrecked by those diseases he got for King and Country. That man was my father.

[Markheliops]

I think the above says it all - Nothng more to say on this subject. :clap:

 

 

 

 

[da bomb]

I'll give a couple of examples of re-enactors at a show i attended earlier in the year....

 

A chap with his Canadian ford with Limber and artillery piece in dressed down tommy garb, had a large display of shells, fuses and other artillery paraphenalia, arranged like it was an active artillery position, kids were operating the gun, and old boys were "Pulling up a Sandbag" talking of their experiences etc. He was very knowledgeable on the equipment he had, a collection he had built over a large number of years.

For me this was the best display of the show.

 

Across the way was a GMC truck in a very overdone camouflaged position, manned by a number of American G.I. Airborne re-enactors, they had every conceivable gun, ammo box and military knick knack, surrounded by barbed wire and minefield signs etc.

They were so busy as they put it been "Living history" people walked on by.

 

If you dont include the "Public" they are then the "Shunned" with the resulting negative feeling about what you are up to. Magnify this by making the re-enacting period in recent history and emotions run high, i shouldnt think English Civil War re-enactors have this problem, however interesting for re-enactors it is, large groups of SS been very serious and not entertaining any public involvement is not good for the movement.

 

I spent 15 years in the forces, personally i dont like wearing uniform, and wear a boiler suit at shows, i prefer the vehicles and how they are kitted out and like talking to the public, answering questions and giving them rides in my vehicle, preferring the enjoyment it gives.

 

Basically, if you feel you have to walk around in uniform, remember what it represents and act responsibly, and if you dont want to talk to people and explain the significance of what you are re-enacting......get another hobby!

 

Thats me off the soapbox!

[David Ives]

i will admit that i wear my uniform :police: with pride as i earned the right to wear it and at many of the shows i will talk about my time and show people the different items that go in the 109 as a vehicle on exercise in the 80's ;-)

some come up and ask am i recruiting and i say no but will talk them througth the procedure and direct them in the appropriate direction

the one thing i no longer wear is rank badges but i will wear my medals on my blazer for remembrance day

enougth said :whistle:

 

[Tony B]

If one chooses to wear a uniform. One do it right, correct dress correct conduct. Always show respect to veterans or serving officers. Know your subject and be prepared to discuss ALL aspects, good and bad, never stop researching and learning. Remember you are ACTING. and above all At the going down of the sun, and in the morning , Remember them!!

[snowtracdave]

I think all of us - even those not ex services - have a pretty good idea of what our vehicles represent and therefore the greatest respect for those who operated them .

 

Having spent a very short time in a friends tank I have to say that it scared the bejesus out of me . Not the vehicle , the size or whatever . The realisation of what it must have been like - is like - for those boys and girls who work in these things for a living to be under fire , under pressure , under attack . For me these is no more sobering thought or better way to engender respect .

[saracenstump]

If one chooses to wear a uniform. One do it right, correct dress correct conduct. Always show respect to veterans or serving officers. Know your subject and be prepared to discuss ALL aspects, good and bad, never stop researching and learning. Remember you are ACTING. and above all At the going down of the sun, and in the morning , Remember them!!

 

i agree tony,whenever i'm asked if i'm in the army or have been i always give the same answer no. because i haven't, the only experience i had was in the army cadets for about 10years as cadet and instructor.but i feel its better to ask someone whos wearing a uniform if worn correctly how it feels,how heavy freedom of movement etc than just looking at it on a display but some people take things abit far thats human nature someone at sometime will be offended whatever you do

[sean101ryan]

When in the UK I tended to wear DPM at shows unless it was in a military establishment where I wore civvy stuff. The only exception was Army 2002 when we were in the living history. Found myself explaining Rapier to an high ranking officer and a foreign visitor despite a real Rapier unit being just down the way! :dunno:

 

The only guys in the MMVG who rarely wear military kit are ex RN and did their time in the 60-80's (when we still had a decent amount of war canoes! Think they had enough of uniforms then!

 

The first couple of shows here in Ireland I wore plain green gear not knowing what would be acceptable until I was specifically asked to wear British DPM which I've been doing ever since. Many MV enthusiasts here have served in the Irish Army or reserves and assume I must have been in and are surprised when I always put them straight.

[Joris]

I'm one of the dresser uppers too, and proud of it! Tommorow, me and the rest of the members of the Screaming Ducks Living History Association will ba in Bastogne where we will march, as we do every year. When I'm there marching I'm damn proud of what the soldier who actually fought there achieved and equally proud that we are there to remember them.

 

I totally agree on the medals thing, you should not wear medals you are not entitled to but don't tell me I can't wear an uniform. The vets don't mind, in fact, most enjoy it and that's what counts. We wear our uniforms to remember them and keep that memory alive. Especially for the current generation who does not have the faintest clue what happened in WWII. Our vehicles are always part of our living history displays and together create a very powerfull image.

 

 

[Tony B]

Enjoy the day Joris, much better way of spending it than I will. :cry:

[LeeEnfield]

I'm one of the dresser uppers too, and proud of it! Tommorow, me and the rest of the members of the Screaming Ducks Living History Association will ba in Bastogne where we will march, as we do every year. When I'm there marching I'm damn proud of what the soldier who actually fought there achieved and equally proud that we are there to remember them.

 

I totally agree on the medals thing, you should not wear medals you are not entitled to but don't tell me I can't wear an uniform. The vets don't mind, in fact, most enjoy it and that's what counts. We wear our uniforms to remember them and keep that memory alive. Especially for the current generation who does not have the faintest clue what happened in WWII. Our vehicles are always part of our living history displays and together create a very powerfull image.

 

 

 

 

 

Fully agree with you, Joris. :-)

[LeeEnfield]

If one chooses to wear a uniform. One do it right, correct dress correct conduct. Always show respect to veterans or serving officers. Know your subject and be prepared to discuss ALL aspects, good and bad, never stop researching and learning. Remember you are ACTING. and above all At the going down of the sun, and in the morning , Remember them!!

 

 

 

You've summed my feelings up, in a paragraph, Tony. :-D

 

Research, for me is almost as much of the enjoyment as the showing of kit and vehicle.

 

For me, dressing and badging as RASC,- the number of guys come up and start reminnising of their time in either RASC or RCT, makes it ALL worth while. :-) :-)

[LeeEnfield]

'lets not forget the sacrifices made, by those veterans, so we can pursue our hobby.'

 

Andy, I think that because you have the above on the bottom of your posts, it rules you out of the kind of dressers up I was referring to!

 

JC

 

 

 

 

Cheers, John;

As I say, I wasn't having a dig.

 

All the best.

 

Andy

[Tony B]

 

You've summed my feelings up, in a paragraph, Tony. :-D

 

Research, for me is almost as much of the enjoyment as the showing of kit and vehicle.

 

For me, dressing and badging as RASC,- the number of guys come up and start reminiscing of their time in either RASC or RCT, makes it ALL worth while. :-) :-)

Yeah, give them a cup of tea and in return get a thousand hilarious, tragic and real stories.