Red Cross trademark

[Great War truck]

A friend restored a very nice K2 ambulance and then received a letter from the Red cross telling him to remove their logo from his ambulance as it was a trademark of their organisation, or they would take legal action. He ignored it and i think that was the end of the matter. Thinking back to W & T i remember that someone else had the same problem and got around (or caved in) by putting a white box in the middle of the red cross.

 

Has anybody else come across this issue before? It certainly puts me off donating money to them and everyone who has come knocking on my door from that organisation asking for money i have taken to task on the subject. Saying that i have not had a visitor from the red cross for the last two years now.

 

Any thoughts anyone?

 

Tim (too)

[Richard Farrant]

Tim,

 

This problem occured some years ago, and there was an article about the legal implications in the MVT Windscreen, it may have been as far back as when it was in the smaller format. Perhaps Robert (WOA2) can remember, without me having to delve though back issues. Seem to recollect someone with a Dodge ambulance had problems with the Red Cross organisation at the time. It would be shame to have to resort to suptle alteration on the symbol, just to please them.

 

Richard

[Rick W]

Thats a bizarre state of affairs!?

[79x100]

I hope that they're writing to modellers as well then !

 

Do they licence "their" trademark to the world's armed forces ? I can imagine that if someone were driving a civilian ambulance with a red cross on, it could be confused with a British Red Cross ambulance and that would not be desirable.

 

The amusing thing is that they pinched the logo from Switzerland anyway and simply reversed the colours - If a modern organisation used the Coca-Cola logo but just changed the colours, their feet wouldn't touch the ground :-)

[N.O.S.]

I remember this blowing up about 5 or 6 years ago.

 

I've just had a look on the British Red Cross website, the wording below is taken from that site in the hope it will clarify their position:

 

"The emblem

The Red Cross and Red Crescent emblems - symbols of protection

 

The emblem of the red cross on a white background is the visible sign of protection under the Geneva Conventions, and as such, is the emblem of the medical services of the armed forces. In many countries with a predominantly Muslim population, a red crescent is used instead. Neither emblem has any religious significance.

 

Both emblems have two purposes. The first is to protect sick and wounded victims of war, and those authorised to care for them. The second is to indicate that the person or object on which the emblem is displayed is connected with the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement.

 

The emblems must be trusted absolutely to signify neutrality and impartiality. That is why their unauthorised use is forbidden in international and national law.

 

If you suspect misuse of one of the emblems/names, or of similar designs/wording, please fill in the report misuse of the emblems form and its use will be investigated."

 

Is the key word here "UNAUTHORISED"? Perhaps this is what annoys them :dunno:

 

Why don't you email them and ask them if they would give authorisation for the use of the emblem on a restored vehicle?

 

If they say NO, I don't think much of their controls, as there are so many restored vehicles around with accurate emblems on :whistle:

 

[fv1609]

I remember about 25 years ago, someone with an ambulance pig showed me a letter of authority from IRRC giving him authority to display their trademark even though it was a preserved vehicle. So I wrote to IRRC asking for permission outlining the fact that under our Vehicle Use & Construction Regulations my vehicle was clearly defined as an ambulance & the job I was in at time, our law provided me the right to use such a vehicle as an ambulance for certain purposes.

 

I had a rather aggressive reply from a French lady who seemed to construe that I would be charging people to be patients in my ambulance & the IRRC was free to user & it was all incompatible. Furthermore it was the responsibility of the national Society to grant permission, which they would not grant to a vehicle such as mine.

 

I used to belong to the British Ambulance Preservation Society, they had a ruling from St Johns that you could display the St Johns insignia if you were a BAPS member & it was all done in the best possible taste. BRC would countenance such an arrangement.

 

When I sold my ambulance the next owner suffered an official complaint from BRC as his ambulance was parked on the road outside his house. Shortly after he sold the vehicle.

 

There has been talk that the Red Cross, Red Crescent, Red Star of David etc would lapse & a symbol such as a Red Diamond would be assumed worldwide thereby negating the offence & humiliation occurring if a patient of non Christian origin is taken an ambulance that has a Red Cross. What seems to be forgotten that it is not representing the crusaders Red Cross as such, but the Geneva Convention provided that the symbol to be adopted was that of the reverse of the Swiss flag, as a lasting compliment to the country for establishing the framework for the Convention.

 

So the point that I am getting to, is that when the Red Diamond becomes internationally adopted, does that mean that the Red Cross symbol has no more validity & it can be freely used (unless it caused offence to an individual that saw the symbol not appreciating its historical basis)?

 

[martylee]

I didn't have much time to read thru the previous posts on this thread so fel free to kick my butt if I repeat anything said there.

 

I don't really think that the red cross is after us for using the red cross, but to defend the trademark they have to do something everyonce in a while. Just think if some foreign dictator in some far off nation just decided to paint all his vehicles with this logo to avoid being attacked. Off course the red cross couldn't accept that. But how can you explain that some are allowed to use the red cross (HMVs) and others (dictator) His vehicles might be as old as ours!! The red cross wouldn't get far in a court if they as a neutral organization treated HMVs and dictators differently. Then they would take side.

Ok, so this is a bit of a constructed example and I'm not sure it made any sense at all.

 

This part however should be understandable:

Perhaps if those of us that wants to have the red cross on the MVs could do a little work for the Red Cross organization!? And therefore be allowed to use the Red Cross. Collect money, show up at events and stand with the red cross people to give them attention.

Ok, I'm still pretty naive at the age of thirty-something!

 

 

Marty

[Tony B]

The emblem of the red cross on a white background is the visible sign of protection under the Geneva Conventions, and as such, is the emblem of the medical services of the armed forces. In many countries with a predominantly Muslim population, a red crescent is used instead. Neither emblem has any religious significance.

 

Cobblers!The red cross was the sign of the Crusader's and has been pushed as such by Islamic extremists. So there is a political significance. My 101 is an ambulance, equipped as such, has red crosses and will continue to carry them.

[andreadavide]

There are two uses of the Red Cross:

- Protection mark, under the Geneva conventions and additional protocols.

- National Red Cross Society badge.

 

The first one isn't regulated by the National Red Cross society but by the parts signatories of the conventions and the protocols (i.e. the governments). The Red Cross indicates personnell, materials and vehicles used for the relief of the wounded and sick on the battlefields (I convenction), on sea (II Convention), WPs (III convention) and civilian population (IV convention). This is the meaning of the Red Cross on a military vehicle and shows that the vehicle is neutral for all the duration of the conflict.

 

The second use is a "de facto" trademark for a national association, which has a mixed background of a private association and an official representative of the Nation on certain grounds. The national red cross society mark on vehicles and equipments must be smaller.

 

Therefore you aren't displaying the National Red Cross Society badge, but the Geneva Cross as stated by the relevant International Law, and even if the National Society complains, it's just the MOD or the Foreign Office that is entitled to decide about the display of the Red Cross on HMVs.

 

However common sense says that Joe Public doesn't know about these technicalities and can mistake your vehicle for a legitimate ambulance or a promotional vehicle of the BRC (if you are in the UK). This may lead to some funny or serious (i.e. in the event of a RTA) misunderstandings.

 

My humble opinion is that, while we are all entitled to display the Red Cross for historic purposes on shows and reenactements, some caution should be used on the everyday use of our vehicles.

 

Please excuse me for the poor typing and construction of sentences, but I hadn't time enough to polish my post.

 

Andrea

(Capt. Italian Armed Forces - International Humanitarian Law instructor)

[Tony B]

Thanks Andrea. My 101 is a bit of an oddity, as it is accepted by DVLA in UK as an ambulance. She is fully equipped with cover flaps for the red crosses. When she is not standing as an ambulance at events. I do equestrian events as well as she can get in where county ambulances can't, at all other times the crosses are covered. I would suggest everyone gets first aid training from St Johns or Red Cross in England Wales and St Andrew's in Scotland and carry a small first aid kit. Also a decent fire extinguisher, I've used mine at unexpected moments over the years. Touch wood not on me or mine yet. :-D

 

The Red Cross Society did get problems some years ago with fake organisations using the symbol as part of a con, and quite rightly got very upset. I'm sure we would all agree that mis-representation of the symbols, especially in pursuit of crime is untenable.

[woa2]

I can remember this problem arising when I was editing 'Windscreen'. At the time it was agreed that Ambulances could display the Red Cross at shows (ie on private ground) but not show the Red Cross mark when on the road. If the Red Cross was covered by a tarpaulin when on a public road, then the BRC were happy. However, I don't know if the BRC have changed their atitude since I stopped being Editor.

[martylee]

Very good answer from Andreadavid. Good to have you around!

 

Marty

[Tony B]

Yes, the brains on this forum we could run a country, right lads TO THE BARRACAIDES!! :banme:

[Bazz]

 

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, is this problem the reason that the Red Cross was removed from first aid boxes and replaced with the current one, as being a ex Medic we were told to remove our red crosses from out boxes containing kit.

 

Baz.

[andreadavide]

Barry,

that is the reason.

 

Some further informations can be obtained here

 

http://www.icrc.ch/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/p0778/$File/ICRC_002_0778.PDF!Open

 

and especially here:

 

http://www.icrc.ch/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/emblem-model-law-110107/$File/Model%20law.emblem-0107_eng%20.pdf

 

 

Hope this helps!

 

Andrea

[ArtistsRifles]

Just read the article - and that "Red Crystal" marking looks awfully like the red diamonds used at times on fighting vehicles......

[Marmite!!]

There are two uses of the Red Cross:

- Protection mark, under the Geneva conventions and additional protocols.

 

 

Or some think it's just a target :angry:

 

http://dogfightatbankstown.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/amb.jpg[/img]

[Jessie The Jeep]

.........So the point that I am getting to, is that when the Red Diamond becomes internationally adopted............

 

 

 

.....All casinos and online gaming establishments will have to be licensed and approved by the Red Cross????? :whistle:

 

Steve

[79x100]

Or some think it's just a target :angry:

 

http://dogfightatbankstown.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/amb.jpg[/img]

 

 

It seems to have been attacked from the air. Presumably this was a blue on blue from the American Red Cross then ?