Adrian Barrell Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Some people just like to criticise....... I wonder what they themselves have achieved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeePig Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 As Prof. Holger Steinle said: 'So try it.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoranWC51 Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 A Swedish DC3/C47 was shot down by the Soviet union June 13 1952, while doing radio reconnaissance. The plane went down and it wasn't until June 2003 that the plane was found and it was raised, using a special platform, in 2004. Today it is displayed, as found on the sea floor, at Flygvapenmuseum in Linköping. It's a chilling testament to what happened during the Cold War. The Dornier can be displayed in many different ways. Restoring it and displaying in on its wheels is just one way. I wish the team all the luck and hope that the Do 17 is in such good shape that it will come up more or less in one piece. Goran N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferrettkitt Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Corsec has the right to criticise and air his views on whether he thinks its right and wrong, thats his right its supposedly what our Grandfathers, Grandmothers and relatives fought for in WW2 plus the wars that came after. You don't have to agree with him. I can't see the point of building a replica when you can find one on the seabed, if you had to build another Do 17 it would cost far in access off £300000 if you had to pay the full price up front without volunteer helpers. Whether what comes up from the seabed is worth £300000 only time will tell, the museum certainly won't say that it is junk they will ask for more money to help with the restoration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessie The Jeep Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 £300,000 is peanuts for a unique pice of 'British' history. Let's see, £300,000...a weeks wages for a footballer? a modest sized house, a flat in London, a flash sports car? Even triple that would be worth it for a unique item that helps to tell the story of the survival of the freedom of the country, and arguably the world. How many at the RAF Museum management would sell their souls for an intact Stirling bomber? Too late now. How about the last HP Halifax, scrapped in the 1960's, even though it was known to be the last surviving intact example ( thankfully the Canadians found one to restore ). How much more history should we let go? I understand we can't save everything, but last surviving examples should be treasured. We need to save not just our history, but the history of all sides in a conflict to tell the true story about the sacrifices made. From what I've read elsewhere, the Dornier will be preserved and not restored. To restore it would pretty much mean replacing everything with new material, in which case a replica would do. There's something about the RAFM Halifax, Galdiator and Hurricane displayed as they are. To me, there's a different atmosphere surrounding them. Something that perhaps makes you stop and think just a little more about the losses from war, rather than seeing yet another pretty aeroplane. I hope the Dornier, once preserved, will leave people with a chill up their spine and a pause for reflection about what happened to the world around 70 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 Here's an interesting (and very well executed IMO) way to display an aircraft - seen last month at Duxford. Supposedly replicating an actual wartime photo of a soldier standing guard over a crashed plane but I missed the photo! The other side of the plane is in 'unrestored' condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 There's a distinct similarity between the DO17 and this flying fish (mind you the flying fish appears to be missing its engines and propellers......). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoseman Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 Here's an interesting (and very well executed IMO) way to display an aircraft - seen last month at Duxford. Supposedly replicating an actual wartime photo of a soldier standing guard over a crashed plane but I missed the photo! The other side of the plane is in 'unrestored' condition. [ATTACH=CONFIG]76345[/ATTACH] This is a great exibit in my opinion. I went there for a full day a couple of years ago. the plane is depicting a photo taken of a crashed BF109 during the battle of britain over the south coast. Dont have full details but im sure some bod on here will have pics of the opposite side and original pic! Whatever your interests take a FULL day at Duxford, you will not be dissapointed (thats an order soldier...!!):-D Well worth the drive down for us, stay the night in a local B&B, loads of history down there relating to wartime conflicts!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbo Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 Hey ruxy ..many years ago my Dads sister lived in Gloucester and whenever we visited we'd traipse out into the back garden to see the 'bomb damage' from one of the raids that hit the city .it wasn't much to see mind you ..there was a just a large chunk missing from one of the stone window sills with a corresponding gouge in the brickwork where a large piece of shrapnel had hit the house one night...like I said...not much at all in the grand scheme of things.... but it did somehow bring the war a lot closer to a fascinated 10 year old lad I have no firm opinion on the recovery of the Do17 other than to say I guess if someones happy to pay ?...then it's going to happen one way of another .... Interesting to hear the argument that it's a 'war grave'... it quite probably is....but .. ..if we were talking about a Tiger or a Panther or a Sherman that someone had just found buried in a meadow in France?....would the same be said of that?? I know the odds are, that the unfortunate crew would maybe have been recovered from a tank but....they might not have been ?......so.... should such a find also be left alone???? I think this kind of oral history is great and really brings it to life. Being born and brought up in Coventry my mother, who is now 89, went through the blitz and talks of sheltering under the kitchen table in fear of her life. No 26 (across the road) suffered a direct hit and the occupants were killed. This is something she always delights in telling any new buyers of no 26 when they move in! We have been trying to persuade her to record her experiences on tape for some time but to date she has resisted. Ironically my old man was with 20 BD company who were based in Hastings at the time - it was 5 days before he knew whether she was alive or dead. If the recovery of the dornier helps to bring this sort of thing to life then so be it. Dont see much point in doing anything other than conserving it though as you would have to replace so much of it I suspect it would become almost a replica. To my mind seeing it in its original condition will be more powerful. As an aside Ive been to Berlin a couple of times over the years and every time I go a bit of history seems to have disappeared. When we first went in the 90's the Brandenburg Gate still bore the scars of 1945, now it looks like it was built yesterday. I can understand a nation wanting to move on, but it is just less interesting (for me at least!)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcspool Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 From what I've read elsewhere, the Dornier will be preserved and not restored. To restore it would pretty much mean replacing everything with new material, in which case a replica would do. There's something about the RAFM Halifax, Galdiator and Hurricane displayed as they are. To me, there's a different atmosphere surrounding them. Something that perhaps makes you stop and think just a little more about the losses from war, rather than seeing yet another pretty aeroplane. I hope the Dornier, once preserved, will leave people with a chill up their spine and a pause for reflection about what happened to the world around 70 years ago. Steve, Very well put. I totally agree & I hope the Dornier is recovered and preserved like the Halifax, Gladiator and Hurricane. These are among the most powerful mementos of WW2, in a way more powerful than a flying airplane... Hanno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 (edited) Actually, last I heard it was coming up in two main pieces- the fuselage, with tail will come up as one piece, and the wings will come up as a second. The Dornier 17 (among a large number of planes) was designed to manufactured in that way- the fuselage would be made as a single piece and then the wing centre section would be inserted into the gap on top. The plan as i heard it would be to attempted to remove the rivets holding the wing centre section on. I believe they may be bringing the engines up seperately. Why are the engines coming up seperatly is it because the they were ripped off or because they have rotted off to the point where they will fall off anyway Edited May 10, 2013 by cosrec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 (edited) Do you criticise the likes of Amac for his efforts in restoring a Loyd Carrier, arguably from a far worse state than this Dornier? No far from it his carrier is salvagable to the piont it will propabley be driving about that pile of ferric/aluminum oxide what ever condition it comes to the surface in will never represent the machine that went down. Edited May 10, 2013 by cosrec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redneck Posted May 10, 2013 Share Posted May 10, 2013 If we applied rationality to any of this we would all be driving around in electric vehicles and Everest wold still be unclimbed. A big thumbs up to irrational adventurers the world over and long may they pull things of the seabed or rebuild lumps of rust into machinery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeePig Posted May 10, 2013 Share Posted May 10, 2013 It is not my money to play with, but I am glad that many of you in Britain can still want to achieve things and not take that long, comfortable swan dive into obscurity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzkpfw-e Posted May 10, 2013 Share Posted May 10, 2013 Here's an interesting (and very well executed IMO) way to display an aircraft - seen last month at Duxford. Supposedly replicating an actual wartime photo of a soldier standing guard over a crashed plane but I missed the photo! The other side of the plane is in 'unrestored' condition. Bf 109E-3 1190, ex-Bf109E-4/N, ex-4/JG 26 "White 4", White 4 @ Duxford December 2011 by Nicholas1963, on Flickr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted May 11, 2013 Share Posted May 11, 2013 (edited) Some people just like to criticise....... I wonder what they themselves have achieved? May not be rich but seen life upset a few plonkers on the way and enjoyed every momment of it will put a full CV on if it helps Edited May 11, 2013 by cosrec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAFMT Posted May 11, 2013 Share Posted May 11, 2013 Why are the engines coming up seperatly is it because the they were ripped off or because they have rotted off to the point where they will fall off anyway For the same reason the engines are frequently removed during recovery operations- simply to make things easier. As it is, the engines put a lot of weight to one side of the load, which can cause the load to twist and potentially damage it. This is the same regardless of whether the aircraft crashed 70 years ago or yesterday. Also I'm not sure what sources the article you quoted used, my mention that the aircraft would come up in two pieces was through a conversation with a member of the RAF Museum staff involved in the operation. However this was some months ago so the recovery team may have decided otherwise but I doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted May 11, 2013 Share Posted May 11, 2013 May not be rich but seen life upset a few plonkers on the way and enjoyed every momment of it Whatever makes you happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted May 11, 2013 Share Posted May 11, 2013 (edited) May not be rich but seen life upset a few plonkers on the way and enjoyed every momment of it will put a full CV on if it helps cosrec you seem to be baiting the members in this thread, if you have nothing constructive to add to the thread then please refrain from posting. Thank you. Edited May 11, 2013 by Marmite!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 (edited) For the same reason the engines are frequently removed during recovery operations- simply to make things easier. As it is, the engines put a lot of weight to one side of the load, which can cause the load to twist and potentially damage it. This is the same regardless of whether the aircraft crashed 70 years ago or yesterday. Also I'm not sure what sources the article you quoted used, my mention that the aircraft would come up in two pieces was through a conversation with a member of the RAF Museum staff involved in the operation. However this was some months ago so the recovery team may have decided otherwise but I doubt it. The recovery methodology includes a bespoke lifting frame which will be employed to retrieve the Dornier from the seabed. Of modular construction the frame will be assembled around the aircraft, the lower sections being inserted beneath the wings and rear fuselage before attachment to the upper lifting portion (once on the surface this structure will also be employed as a transport cradle). Lifting Frame Design raf museums web site there is a drawing on but it hasnot pasted in www.rafmuseum.org.uk Edited May 12, 2013 by cosrec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 Note shows engines in frame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berna2vm Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I would personally love to see it at Duxford. In my opinion there should be at least one of every machine preserved whatever the politics of the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAFMT Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Well then, i stand corrected. The lift company obviously decided they could do it in one after the last inspection dive, as i haven't spoken to anyone since just before then. Although the fact they want to do it in one speaks volumes for the integrity of the structure. However, having seen the hydration tunnels the Dornier will be spending time in, it will have to be separated into two to fit in. Unless they are going to somehow make a frankentunnel large enough to house the complete airframe. Seeing the fuselage and wing frames in different probably indicate they are separate structures for the purposes of transporting the aircraft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enfield1940 Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Information on the lifting frame, etc. from the salvage company: http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/blog/seatechs-role-in-saving-the-dornier/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Seem that very little is being reported on this since we had the First of the bad News report from BBC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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