Advice on the price for a 353 CCKW

[deadline]

Your story of the truck near the shipping port is the EXACT same as what I faced.... the TOTAL VALUE (not the expense) was not worth the cost.

 

You (and I) did not purchase either truck because the VALUE of the trucks was LESS than the EXPENSE to acquire it. Now that basic premise is still valid if you change 'shipping fee' with 'parts added at retail cost'. Both are still EXPENSES. And the value of the truck must be significantly greater than the EXPENSE in order to reasonable justify the purchase.

 

I'll try one more example..

 

We've all seen a truck that was a real wreck... but had some valuable parts.. say a spare tire carrier, a working hydrovac, original rifle racks, etc. But the VALUE of those parts is not worth the COST of the truck, and definitely not worth the TOTAL EXPENSE of having to ship it anywhere.

 

In this instance are you saying that if the seller added a new loom for $1200 the value of the truck has now increased $1200? No. The loom was added at its retail cost (no equity for you). Now if the new loom was added in for free, there is $1200 of equity in parts (well, not really, you couldn't sell that loom for $1200) and that *might* add to the value of the wrecked truck (with all other parts) into having enough value to justify the EXPENSE of purchasing and shipping it home.

 

I offered my opinion on the OPs truck at (if I recall) £2500-£3500. Its not in A1 shape, has incorrect parts, the paint looks to shiny and I'm sure the engine bay is not restored.

 

Good luck to the gentleman and I hope he gets as much as he can for it. But if it sold for £5500 I would think that to be an impulse buyer not a collector.

[N.O.S.]

Seems to me trucks are not valued so highly in the USA. Which is surprising considering so many have been repatriated from Europe in recent years. And they've been bought at European values and shipped over.

 

Mind you, our burgers are only half the size of the ones in USA and twice the price

[cosrec]

I am looking for what would be considered a good price to sell a 1939 hard cab 353 CCKW, the vehicle is in good condition, and just had a full repaint as well as some work done to the brakes (new hoses etc all round), I am not the owner of this vehicle but am asking on behalf of a friend as they have been offered £5500 for it, however looking on milweb i have yet to see a truck of this age and with a steel bed for sale and i am thinking that it is worth more than the offer given. Many thanks in advance for your advice, Mash.

reading your posting again is your friend happy to take £5500 for it if so why has he not sold it.

if he dont think its enough and he wants to sell it why dont he put it on milweb and see what he is offered. end of day he is the one in charge he is the one who knows its worth he is the one who makes the final disision.

Not all the people who stand in the wings commenting on the price.

The worth of an item is the price realised on sale not the the estimated price from onlookers.

one other observation an item is worthless to any buyer and also to the owner until money actually changes hands

Edited July 19, 2012 by cosrec

[deadline]

I find this conversation on truck prices extremely interesting. We in the US are envious of the trucks in Europe!

 

As with any market the values placed on the items are affected by available items for sale. Most trucks in the US could not be considered restored. At best overhauled, but not rebuilt. There is a very big difference.

 

I have yet to see a truck sold that claims an engine rebuild (a true rebuild, not clean the grease off and repaint) as that is about $1500 for parts/machining. I overhauled my jeep engine and every part was either just at, or at its serviceable life. Pistons are 80over, crank bearings are a 40 under, rods at 50under, needed new valve guides, timing chain/gears etc etc etc. I will bet that most CCKWs out there are not running standard bearings and pistons.

 

There are lots of mechanical parts that the average CCKW owner either doesn't have the experience, equipment, or money to make right.

 

That's just the mechanical portion. Then there is wiring, brake lines, fuel lines, etc etc etc. Most CCKW owners are of the 'see no evil' mindset... if its not broke, don't fix it.

 

So, with that glimpse of what an average CCKW is saddled with... thinking that a fresh coat of paint or new loom (all bought at retail prices) somehow INCREASED the value of a truck is sign of an uninformed buyer. It increases the expense that the owner has for owning the truck, buy would you but that truck, pay to ship it any distance? NO. Because there is no equity in the truck to justify the expense.

 

Even if the truck IS close enough that shipping does not add much additional expense, fresh olive drab paint does not increase compression, tune an engine, adjust the brakes, etc.

 

There are some trucks out there that are truly worth the asking price. Most however, are priced haphazardly, truly leaving the buyer to his own wits in weeding out the good from the overpriced.

 

Just food for thought.

Edited July 20, 2012 by deadline

[Big ray]

 

This is my GMC being driven by our son Tony, the engine is standard bore, good compression, no oil leaks, sounds very sweet. She stays in all gears, no wear in the boxes, or diffs. Bodywise very sound with good paintwork................ here in the U.K. that will be considered " Run of the mill".......... plain average. Maybe we just look after this stuff very well............... in fact I am in a worse condition that the truck. However, I am a little older than the truck though.

[RattlesnakeBob]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]64892[/ATTACH] This is my GMC being driven by our son Tony, the engine is standard bore, good compression, no oil leaks, sounds very sweet. She stays in all gears, no wear in the boxes, or diffs. Bodywise very sound with good paintwork................ here in the U.K. that will be considered " Run of the mill".......... plain average. Maybe we just look after this stuff very well............... in fact I am in a worse condition that the truck. However, I am a little older than the truck though.

 

run of the mill???:undecided:...not in my book mate.....thats a cracking looking truck.:laugh:.

she's a beauty and I'd make room for her on the drive any day of the week !

[deadline]

If you had to put a price on your truck for sale, what would it be?

 

Put an honest value.. not an emotional 'it means to much'.

 

Then justify it.

 

I don't see much more than about $6500USD or £4100-£4500. Most of that is because it has a bed, winch, and appears to drive.

 

As a buyer my thoughts are:

 

The gun mount doesn't add as much as you think, as it's not for an open cab. You would get more value from it if sold separately. You're also missing the door latches. The drivers side door looks to be a bit wavy.... but could be the light. A CCKW running standard pistons is most likely not the original engine, correct? No wear in the gearbox? Really? Never missed a shift? All gears wear. All seals cut a grove in shafts. Unless you also have new/rebuilt gearboxes? It does have a good coat of paint. But that also means little to perspective collectors. Maybe someone looking for a 'reenactor grade' it would save them the time.. but it doesn't add much as much value as most think.

 

Now if you had receipts for a rebuild that would answer a lot of questions.

 

As you said, this could be considered an average truck. Its not perfect, its got issues, and its got a lot of bolt on parts that really could be left off as they add little value to a truck

 

How's about a jeep comparison? Why do original 'barn finds' with rotted tires, poor paint/canvas sell for significantly more than 'restored' jeeps? Because the people with the serious money for MVs are not concerned with paint and reproduction parts. And its not about being rare. You could easily put a jeep together for less than an all original matching jeep.

[Vulture]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]64892[/ATTACH] This is my GMC being driven by our son Tony, the engine is standard bore, good compression, no oil leaks, sounds very sweet. She stays in all gears, no wear in the boxes, or diffs. Bodywise very sound with good paintwork................ here in the U.K. that will be considered " Run of the mill".......... plain average. Maybe we just look after this stuff very well............... in fact I am in a worse condition that the truck. However, I am a little older than the truck though.

 

Great looking truck Ray Very nice. I'd be happy to park that long term on my drive as well

[cosrec]

Great looking truck Ray Very nice. I'd be happy to park that long term on my drive as well

64 million dollar question put a price on it that you would pay (No excuseses about lack of room etc). and i will open this up to every body on this forum this way we will get some idea of the vehicles worth so we can then give the original question a rough idea of price dont think it will be as much as imagined and this is from a forum that is dedicated to this sort of thing

Edited July 20, 2012 by cosrec

[Big ray]

If you had to put a price on your truck for sale, what would it be?

 

Put an honest value.. not an emotional 'it means to much'.

 

Then justify it.

 

I don't see much more than about $6500USD or £4100-£4500. Most of that is because it has a bed, winch, and appears to drive.

 

Your idea of price is very likely a true reflection on the real value of this vehicle, I think that its nearer to scrap value given the technology, but then I have no intention of selling her, so the question is quite academic. I suppose that if I thought about it seriously I would probably want about £6000.00....... but then she`s not or sale. I go to great lengths in my efforts to educate the young people of this country just what this vehicle represents. It represents a generation of young Americans that served in the E-T-O that the likes of will probably never be seen again. They came over here to defend democrocy, there own homeland was not under direct threat from the axis forces.......... a few learned people in the U.S. knew that that that was a distinct possibility in the not too distant future if the axis forces should prevail. However, a young American serviceman would not have been thinking along those lines, so its still a source of amazement to me that he was prepared to risk life and limb to protect what I believe to him was some little country just a few miles off mainland Europe. So you see my truck does not really represent any value, its dedicated to a lot of young men that are buried over here in Europe and never returned home to their families.......... How can you put a price on that.

[Degsy]

Ray, that is how many of us feel but I have never before seen it put into words so well.

[N.O.S.]

Yes, all credit to you Ray for answering the question, let alone in such a profound way. It was a debate which was always going to be won by the hopeless romantics anyway :-D

[Vulture]

Yes well said Ray

[deadline]

That's a very nice sentiment which I share. I am a Navy Veteran (FTB3/SS) and my father made the US Army a career.

 

But this is a much more mundane discussion.

 

As I mentioned earlier, buy the truck, not the story. If a collector/historian is looking for a CCKW I would say that they are going to be on the more 'fickle' end of the price scale as opposed to say someone who just wants one for farm use.

 

I could list what I consider the value of just about every part on a CCKW, and it would be a very reasoned and logical price guide. For the most part I think vendors, for individual parts, are pretty close. Individual parts are much more expensive than complete units. The analogy is that you *could* order every part to build a reproduction jeep, from bumper to bumper and it would be 2-4x the cost of buying a running jeep that has been 'restored'.

 

That said, few people have actually given a number that was very different from my price range.

 

For discussion's sake here's what I consider appropriate ranges for the types of CCKW I come across.

 

 

Parts truck, without bed - $1200-$1500

Parts truck, with bed - $1500-2000

winch adds about $500-1000 depending if the PTO/shafts/wire rope, levers etc are all there.

 

Plane jane CCKW cargo working order, garage restored, mixed parts (closed cab with wooden bed and such) $4000-$6000

Winch adds $750-1000 if its all there, in working order.

 

Professional restored, proper parts, historically accurate (proper engine, canvas etc) $6000-$10000

 

Anything over $10,000 should be either a variant like a compressor truck with tools, gas tanker, etc. These are the hardest to value as they are also the most uncommon.. and the VALUE is not the truck, but the accessories like pumps/hoses/tools.

 

I think these numbers are not unrealistic or 'low ball'.

 

So when Supply Line or ebay or Joe's used cars advertises a $12000-15000 Norwegian CCKW cargo truck, no winch, basically nothing more than repainted OD there is no sane basis for that price. That's what they might have PAID to acquire the truck, and haphazardly throw a coat of OD over the rust.... but that's not what the truck is worth.

[Pete Ashby]

If you had to put a price on your truck for sale, what would it be?

 

Put an honest value.. not an emotional 'it means to much'.

 

Then justify it.

 

I don't see much more than about $6500USD or £4100-£4500. Most of that is because it has a bed, winch, and appears to drive.

 

Your idea of price is very likely a true reflection on the real value of this vehicle, I think that its nearer to scrap value given the technology, but then I have no intention of selling her, so the question is quite academic. I suppose that if I thought about it seriously I would probably want about £6000.00....... but then she`s not or sale. I go to great lengths in my efforts to educate the young people of this country just what this vehicle represents. It represents a generation of young Americans that served in the E-T-O that the likes of will probably never be seen again. They came over here to defend democrocy, there own homeland was not under direct threat from the axis forces.......... a few learned people in the U.S. knew that that that was a distinct possibility in the not too distant future if the axis forces should prevail. However, a young American serviceman would not have been thinking along those lines, so its still a source of amazement to me that he was prepared to risk life and limb to protect what I believe to him was some little country just a few miles off mainland Europe. So you see my truck does not really represent any value, its dedicated to a lot of young men that are buried over here in Europe and never returned home to their families.......... How can you put a price on that.

 

You have captured my thoughts on the subject exactly Ray, be the vehicle US, British or Canadian that is why for the last 40 years I have spent tens of thousands of £'s travelled thousands of miles and invested tens of thousands of hours of my own time in restoring running and keeping these trucks. My farther gave seven years of his young life to to the cause you eloquently set out above. He was lucky apart from some minor wounds and some bad memories he came home many of his generation did not.

 

I am aware that this is starting to get somewhat off topic and for that I apologise however Ray has captured for me the true worth of what we do and why we do it.

 

To bring this discussion back a little more on topic any WW11 truck is now at least 67 years old when you look at that in terms of cold cash who in their right mind would pay any more that current scrap price for any piece of machinery that old?.

The real answer is the worth is in what the truck represents as a piece of history.

 

To put this in perspective deadline, I think recently an original copy of your constitution singed by Washington was sold in your country recently to a private collector for a very large number of $, how was that priced in terms of worth.

A slightly mouldy piece of parchment with a few almost inadvisable scribbles at the bottom. The answer is it had historical context and meaning that gave it value, the worth was what ever the individual felt it meant to them on the day of sale.

 

Interesting discussion thanks

 

Pete

[Pete Ashby]

That's a very nice sentiment which I share. I am a Navy Veteran (FTB3/SS) and my father made the US Army a career.

 

But this is a much more mundane discussion.

 

As I mentioned earlier, buy the truck, not the story. If a collector/historian is looking for a CCKW I would say that they are going to be on the more 'fickle' end of the price scale as opposed to say someone who just wants one for farm use.

 

I could list what I consider the value of just about every part on a CCKW, and it would be a very reasoned and logical price guide. For the most part I think vendors, for individual parts, are pretty close. Individual parts are much more expensive than complete units. The analogy is that you *could* order every part to build a reproduction jeep, from bumper to bumper and it would be 2-4x the cost of buying a running jeep that has been 'restored'.

 

That said, few people have actually given a number that was very different from my price range.

 

For discussion's sake here's what I consider appropriate ranges for the types of CCKW I come across.

 

 

Parts truck, without bed - $1200-$1500

Parts truck, with bed - $1500-2000

winch adds about $500-1000 depending if the PTO/shafts/wire rope, levers etc are all there.

 

Plane jane CCKW cargo working order, garage restored, mixed parts (closed cab with wooden bed and such) $4000-$6000

Winch adds $750-1000 if its all there, in working order.

 

Professional restored, proper parts, historically accurate (proper engine, canvas etc) $6000-$10000

 

Anything over $10,000 should be either a variant like a compressor truck with tools, gas tanker, etc. These are the hardest to value as they are also the most uncommon.. and the VALUE is not the truck, but the accessories like pumps/hoses/tools.

 

I think these numbers are not unrealistic or 'low ball'.

 

So when Supply Line or ebay or Joe's used cars advertises a $12000-15000 Norwegian CCKW cargo truck, no winch, basically nothing more than repainted OD there is no sane basis for that price. That's what they might have PAID to acquire the truck, and haphazardly throw a coat of OD over the rust.... but that's not what the truck is worth.

 

In principal I don't disagree with anything you have said above and I understand the logic. However as several others have noted the prices in the UK and in Europe are significantly higher than in the US, I too keep an eye on prices in your country and up until the recent hike in transport costs it was attractive for European buyers even when shipping had been taken into account this was particularly true for some of the early war types of vehicles that were not shipped to Europe in any number during the conflict.

I believe the reason for the price difference is due to population density and connecting to my point in a previous post It may be that WW11 has a larger residual significance to people here in Europe. I say that not to be inflammatory or provocative but I think it just may be the case. The US went on to be involved in a number of other significant conflicts post WW11 none of which impacted on the Europeans in the same way that WW11 did, the echoes of which we still live with today in the 21 century.

 

Pete

[N.O.S.]

Good point about population density. And related to that is the sheer size of the USA - it is sometimes cheaper to ship a vehicle from near an East Coast port to the UK than to move it across several States - that has to impact hard on MV values.

[Vulture]

The August edition of Classic Military Vehicle (CMV) has the following 'asking' prices against GMCs in the UK and local European countries:

 

Low £ 3,850

Average: £ 11,170

High: £ 14,500

 

To quote from the mag "The figures given are not valuations and not reflect condition - they have been derived from the asking price for vehicles recently advertised in CMV and on MILWEB. This is price they were advertised at, and no guarantee it was sold at this price... or that it sold at all."

 

The figure above can fluctuate quite sharply from month to month, but if you look back over the last 12 months, the average of the 'average' asking price has been £ 7,793, and over the last 6 months £ 7,939.

[deadline]

Asking prince is, in and of itself a poor metric of valuation. SELLING price would improve the valuation enormously.

 

I know I am risking stepping on some emotional toes, and while my grandfather did serve in WWII (I even found his draft paperwork in the National Archives) but it seems that MV's are somehow automatically blessed with a history of combat service that they never may have earned.

 

Analogy: a German Stahlhelm migh sell for $400-600. But with battle damage, even in poor condition, the price goes up 5x-10x if its can be authenticated.

 

I am an avid amateur historian, but I quickly tune out claims that 'my jeep landed on d-day, its worth $10,000' or that any CCKW was used in Bastogn because it was bought in Europe.

 

Granted a PROPERLY vetted and papered vehicle can have its value significantly increased by being associated with a specific even a truck.

 

But even the historic Red Ball Express, at its PEAK, Used less than 6,000 trucks OF ALL MAKES. There is no record of frame SNs and registration numbers can be painted on with ease.

 

The only CCKW that I believe to be properly linked to a historic person is Gen. Pattons personal CCKW. Which is not for sale.

 

So yes, I agree that the CCKW was the trusty mule of a new mechanical Army, that valuation is reflected by its inherent price. You want a CCKW because it's ALREADY a WWII MV. So its history is already reflected by its demand as a collectable. ie If it wasn't already an iconic MV of a World War it would have no intrinsic value.. it would simply be a truck.

 

That said... other than the Patton van, does anyone know of a CCKW that HAS been directly linked to a major historic event? Would be interesting to hear about it.

[N.O.S.]

Some soldier by the name of Kilroy got to drive a fair few jimmies in his time :cool2:

[lightweight]

 

A slightly mouldy piece of parchment with a few almost inadvisable scribbles at the bottom. Pete

 

Sorry, I know this was a typo Pete - but it did make me laugh:-D

 

I think describing a signature on the US Constitution as 'inadvisable' would probably be grounds for a lynching in some states - you'd be safer with 'illegible':cool2:

 

Oh, and in answer to the original question - I'd probably go £5500 on the truck on the first page, I'd probably go higher on a soft cab because I like the look of them more. See - if you like something it's worth more, someone else who likes a roof over their head would say the opposite.

 

A vintage vehicle is an emotional purchase, it's not something you do with your head, you do it with your heart and the value is affected accordingly

Edited July 25, 2012 by lightweight
Thought I'd break the mould and address the original question....

[Pete Ashby]

Sorry, I know this was a typo Pete - but it did make me laugh[/size]:-D

 

I think describing a signature on the US Constitution as 'inadvisable' would probably be grounds for a lynching in some[/i] states - you'd be safer with 'illegible':cool2:

 

:red: Well done Martin, that will teach me to pre read before I push the post button :blush:, but then again it might have been a Freudian slip of the finger

 

 

A vintage vehicle is an emotional purchase, it's not something you do with your head, you do it with your heart and the value is affected accordingly

 

Very true, as I think I said several pages back they go for what ever people are prepared to pay.

 

Pete

Edited July 25, 2012 by Pete Ashby

[deadline]

But for the sake of discussion the 'emotional' price is neither accurate or consistent. You could have a very emotional attachment to say, an MG Midget, but its still never going to be worth a lot (yes I did own one... horrible, horrible vehicle).

 

With all due respect, if your answer is 'what you want to pay' means you have no idea, and are simply hoping not to get ripped off.

 

Again, its all academic.. I know what I will pay, and if I have to negotiate with a seller I have a MUCH better bargaining position than 'I like the truck, what do you want me to pay?'.

 

I was looking for wooden ben hur trailers for parts. There was on about an hour away, typical busted up condition, used on a farm... really NOTHING was salvageable EXCEPT the tailgate hinges were there. All three, hinges, complete with the bolts. Guy wanted $600 for the trailer. I showed up with my TM and photo's of a restored trailer so I could bargain price, and with any luck get the ONLY valuable part on the trailer... the tailgate hinges. I was able to convince him to sell me the hinges for $100 and he can keep the trailer. He though he got a good deal for three parts, and I got exactly what I needed.

 

Now, emotionally I should have delusions of restoring a busted trailer because it might have been used on d-day? No.

 

Ditto for my M35a2. 'Sellers' were asking $3500-$4500 for the exact same truck I could (and DID) by for $1500. I did have to wait, and search, but I got the same truck (well, they are all the same) for little more than knowing their value and waiting for the right price. I did sell it for $3500 but it was in MUCH better condition from when I bought it. Bought vinyl cargo cover, new bows, 4 new tires, fixed some leaking seals etc. I did make a tidy profit of it, but I did much more to it (it was my driver) than guys who simply let them sit after buying them and do nothing to them.

Edited July 26, 2012 by deadline

[mcspool]

they go for what ever people are prepared to pay.

 

Very true Pete!

 

Today I witnessed a good example of this. Today the Prince of Monaco auctioned 38 of his 100+ vehicle collection, including a GMC and three Dodges.

 

I witnessed this auction as I am holidaying in the vicinity and wanted to have a look at a car auction; also never seen military vehicles being auctioned.

 

What looks like a "plain Jane" 353 to me, with nice bodywork but unknown mechanicals - see the auction catalog entry and judge for yourself - was estimated to do 10.000 to 20.000 EUR, and it made 13.500 EUR.

 

Star of the auction was the Dodge Command car with brisk bidding ending at 45.000 EUR; the fifth best price out of 38 cars auctioned.

 

Clearly people are willing to pay a premium for a vehicle with no provenance other than being owned by someone "famous". It also helps auctioning vehicles in a town which hosts extremely wheathly people. In this case I guess it doubled fair market prices at least. There were a few regular HMV collectors present, but they were not impressed by "rare", "6 driven wheels!", or other (non)qualifications given by the auctioneer, and bid up untill roughly half the hammer price, which to me is another indication of what those "in the know" would be willing to pay.

Edited July 26, 2012 by mcspool

[N.O.S.]

But for the sake of discussion the 'emotional' price is neither accurate or consistent. What other price is there - nobody has yet suggested an alternative pricing structure :cool2: You could have a very emotional attachment to say, an MG Midget, but its still never going to be worth a lot Well it's only gonna be worth what anyone else is prepared to pay for it - and if that isn't as much as your emotional attachment - well so flipping what? Why is that a problem? :-D(yes I did own one... horrible, horrible vehicle).

 

With all due respect, if your answer is 'what you want to pay' means you have no idea with respect - that seems to demonstrate very little repsect for anyone else's viewpoint, and are simply hoping not to get ripped off. How could you possibly get ripped off if you end up paying somewhere between what you can negotiate the seller down to, and what you are prepared to pay?

 

Again, its all academic.. I know what I will pay, and if I have to negotiate with a seller I have a MUCH better bargaining position than 'I like the truck, what do you want me to pay?' Only if the emotionally retarded amongst us don't get to it first :cool2: .......

 

I do find it amazing that you should consider that there is a definitive value (which apparently is totally unconnected to any emotional feeling) for a collectible such as a GMC.

 

Come on, get in the real world - the value of any collectible is only going to be determined by whoever is collecting that particular item - be it an enthusiast or a scrap man. With a few notable exceptions (vehicles I mean) we are fortunate in our hobby in that MVs are bought by people who have a real passion for them. It is very sad to see how, for example, the vintage tractor market has gone - people now seem to buy them as much for an investment as for any real interest, which tends to leave the genuine enthusiast pushed out of the running (and we all know what happened to the vintage car market when it overheated).

 

For goodness sake, buy with your heart, or don't buy it!

Edited July 26, 2012 by N.O.S.