A very good documentary (4th and 7th dragoon guards

[afvnut75]

Thought youd all enjoy this !

 

[RecyMech]

Deffo, very good indeed.

Just had time to watch half & will get back to rest later.

 

I just don't remember Chieftains going that fast or that far without breaking down though, one in the film went almost 400 yards without getting the decks up!!

 

(cynical ? me?)

 

H

[afvnut75]

Deffo, very good indeed.

Just had time to watch half & will get back to rest later.

 

I just don't remember Chieftains going that fast or that far without breaking down though, one in the film went almost 400 yards without getting the decks up!!

 

(cynical ? me?)

 

H

 

So can i ask you as im trying to find one of these beasts to restore to its former glory ,

What was it that kept going wrong was it a particular flaw or component or was it a catalouge of things that just kept breaking and did you used to go out to a vehicle thinking oh i bet such and such has gone,

 

And can i ask you about your opinions on the chieftian as a whole as far as its good points and its bad points and are the later mark vehicles far better mechanicaly ?

 

would really appreciate any info on this vehicle that you have .

 

thanks

[sirhc]

Try and get a copy of this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chieftain-Rob-Griffin/dp/1861264380

[afvnut75]

Try and get a copy of this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chieftain-Rob-Griffin/dp/1861264380

 

Thank you very much for bring that book to my notice have ordered it and ill have my nose in it for the next couple of days :nut:

[RecyMech]

Quote;-

What was it that kept going wrong was it a particular flaw or component or was it a catalouge of things that just kept breaking and did you used to go out to a vehicle thinking oh i bet such and such has gone,

 

And can i ask you about your opinions on the chieftian as a whole as far as its good points and its bad points and are the later mark vehicles far better mechanicaly ?

 

These are just purely my views on the above questions...& speaking as a Recymech not an A Mech fitter (thankfully).

 

Firstly I have to say I believe things got generally better with the Chiefy the longer it was in service & I dare say most faults were ironed out by the time it was retired.....so yes, later ones must(?) have been better...but in my experience & at my time of service (pre-laser range finders), almost everthing wrong with it was down to the L60 itself & a weak gearbox. The list of mods carried out to the L60 was quite staggering. The poor bloody fitters would start at one end of the regiment & by the time all 45 packs had been out, fiddled with & put back it was time to take them all out again for something else. Fan drive belts, fluid leaks by the score, coolant leaks, injectors, gearbox failures, steering brake failures. Entire fan drive housings cracking & breaking off was common for a time, caused by excess vibration (makes a big mess). The early & most amusing mod for this (if I recall correctly) was to remove the pack, clean everything down around the fan drive housing, drill a series of holes & insert studs...roll out a wall of plastice & create a dam behind the fan housing....mix 2 half gallon cans of araldite & pour into the dam. You can tell from that, that things were pretty dire at the time. (I used to lift the packs out for them with the Martian, make tea, & then watch them do the above)

 

Engine (L60 a rolling oil leak) & gearbox aside though....when they were running well they were great, pretty quick on a road march, excellent gun kit except for some problems with the 'vent tube' ? not sure what it was but I heard it complained about regularly. Good electrics generally I think. No bother with tracks & suspension, occasional thrown track but that was more down to driver error than design, & the QOH crews liked them a lot apart from the breakdowns.

 

Just my thoughts & memories

 

H

[afvnut75]

Quote;-

What was it that kept going wrong was it a particular flaw or component or was it a catalouge of things that just kept breaking and did you used to go out to a vehicle thinking oh i bet such and such has gone,

 

And can i ask you about your opinions on the chieftian as a whole as far as its good points and its bad points and are the later mark vehicles far better mechanicaly ?

 

These are just purely my views on the above questions...& speaking as a Recymech not an A Mech fitter (thankfully).

 

Firstly I have to say I believe things got generally better with the Chiefy the longer it was in service & I dare say most faults were ironed out by the time it was retired.....so yes, later ones must(?) have been better...but in my experience & at my time of service (pre-laser range finders), almost everthing wrong with it was down to the L60 itself & a weak gearbox. The list of mods carried out to the L60 was quite staggering. The poor bloody fitters would start at one end of the regiment & by the time all 45 packs had been out, fiddled with & put back it was time to take them all out again for something else. Fan drive belts, fluid leaks by the score, coolant leaks, injectors, gearbox failures, steering brake failures. Entire fan drive housings cracking & breaking off was common for a time, caused by excess vibration (makes a big mess). The early & most amusing mod for this (if I recall correctly) was to remove the pack, clean everything down around the fan drive housing, drill a series of holes & insert studs...roll out a wall of plastice & create a dam behind the fan housing....mix 2 half gallon cans of araldite & pour into the dam. You can tell from that, that things were pretty dire at the time. (I used to lift the packs out for them with the Martian, make tea, & then watch them do the above)

 

Engine (L60 a rolling oil leak) & gearbox aside though....when they were running well they were great, pretty quick on a road march, excellent gun kit except for some problems with the 'vent tube' ? not sure what it was but I heard it complained about regularly. Good electrics generally I think. No bother with tracks & suspension, occasional thrown track but that was more down to driver error than design, & the QOH crews liked them a lot apart from the breakdowns.

 

Just my thoughts & memories

 

H

 

So am i right in saying that these faults were on the early marks of chieftian, If so what problems did you face on the later variants ? And were the engine and gearbox faults and the serveer leaking problems rectified extensively on mk 10s and mk 11s ?

 

Thanks for the info means a great deal

[AlienFTM]

The problem Chieftain suffered was that it was specced to have a multi-fuel engine. Run on petrol, diesel, whisky, anything that could spark that could be sourced a week after 3 Shock Army came over the IGB.

 

Rolls Royce designed a multifuel engine and Procurement said to build it, at which point RR told them to go away in short, sharp, jerky movements observing a regimental pause of TWO THREE. They did not want to be associated with such a poor engine. BLMC (or whatever they called themselves that week) had no such qualms and happily built a multifuel engine from the RR design.

 

One flaw in the entire multifuel concept is that different fuels have different (erm compression ratios? I am not a D&M bigot) so that the engine's compression ratio ( ? ) was a compromise and didn't work particularly well with any fuel, too high for petrol, too low for diesel (whatever way round it was).

 

Or so I have always been led to believe.

[RecyMech]

Quote;-

So am i right in saying that these faults were on the early marks of chieftian, If so what problems did you face on the later variants ? And were the engine and gearbox faults and the serveer leaking problems rectified extensively on mk 10s and mk 11s ?

 

As I said, I'm speaking from a Recy-mechs view point not a crew or A Mech fitters view. The period I'm speaking of was 1972 to 76, so they were certainly some of the early marks, & reflect my memories of the beast. There are others profoundly more competant to speak about later marks than I & whether they eventually got things sorted. But I believe it was let's say 'troublesome' to the end.

 

Another thing I remember is the stowage boxes for the bag charges being fluid filled with dry tubes for the bags themselves, this was to suppress any fires if hit. They used to leak quite badly though & bombed up tank could find half its bag charges soaking wet.

 

Best of luck with your restoration though.

 

H

[Willyslancs]

good film, (dad was in the 4/7th 61-63).......

[RecyMech]

Ah, my era of interest....he was on proper tanks then, with petrol engines...Cents, Conqs...& had all the other famous kit around him as new....Champs, Saladins, Saracens, Pigs. :cool2:

 

Get him to pull up a sandbag & pump him for stories about Conquerors. He'll most likely fall into one of two camps...loved em/hated em.:-D

 

H

[Willyslancs]

he stayed mainly at catterick , he was a typewriter mechanic so was mainly in the offices . His mob were the ones that flattened most of the old camp with the tanks i believe .......

[airportable]

Very good film, so much detail on kit, ration packs and radio chatter.

Thanks.

[afvnut75]

Quote;-

So am i right in saying that these faults were on the early marks of chieftian, If so what problems did you face on the later variants ? And were the engine and gearbox faults and the serveer leaking problems rectified extensively on mk 10s and mk 11s ?

 

As I said, I'm speaking from a Recy-mechs view point not a crew or A Mech fitters view. The period I'm speaking of was 1972 to 76, so they were certainly some of the early marks, & reflect my memories of the beast. There are others profoundly more competant to speak about later marks than I & whether they eventually got things sorted. But I believe it was let's say 'troublesome' to the end.

 

Another thing I remember is the stowage boxes for the bag charges being fluid filled with dry tubes for the bags themselves, this was to suppress any fires if hit. They used to leak quite badly though & bombed up tank could find half its bag charges soaking wet.

 

Best of luck with your restoration though.

 

H

 

 

Thank you very much for your info on the chieftain in my eyes its invaluable it gives me an idea of what im going to let myself in for !

But its now a case of trying to find a late mark chieftain they are appearing to be despite their size are as rare as hen teeth with most of them getting shipped to the USA and australia which i feel is a rather sad state of affairs as the chieftain is an iconic vehicle of great britain but i feel this is because of our countrys ever shrinking land mass and the practicality (ie fuel wise of owning one its not however going to put me off ) i hope that one day one shall surface for a reasonable price and i can get to work on one and return it to how it was whilst in british army service, I did think of trying to acquire the arrv variant but these somehow done have the same charisma to them but if one surfaces and theres no chance of buying a cheiftain mbt then ill be content with the arrv variant

 

thanks again

[RecyMech]

Having never tried to buy one I could'nt swear to this, but I would guess that any early mark Chiefy would have been constantly updated with mod kits (pretty much as we were doing in service), therefore the chance of accidentally buying an early mark, as such, I would think is pretty slim.

 

Even the ones we`ve seen pictures of on ranges & on Slab Common have mostly got as far as having laser range finding kit kitted. I think you're biggest worry is simply going to be the L60 regardless of which mark it is....even the very last ones built are now 'old'.

 

best of luck though.

H

[afvnut75]

Having never tried to buy one I could'nt swear to this, but I would guess that any early mark Chiefy would have been constantly updated with mod kits (pretty much as we were doing in service), therefore the chance of accidentally buying an early mark, as such, I would think is pretty slim.

 

Even the ones we`ve seen pictures of on ranges & on Slab Common have mostly got as far as having laser range finding kit kitted. I think you're biggest worry is simply going to be the L60 regardless of which mark it is....even the very last ones built are now 'old'.

 

best of luck though.

H

 

Thanks ive know of someone who has a new l60 in a crate with all the anciliarys so im going to get that and keep it under my bed and sleep on it until the great day comes i know ive got one ready if something does go bang :cool2:

[waggy]

So can i ask you as im trying to find one of these beasts to restore to its former glory ,

What was it that kept going wrong was it a particular flaw or component or was it a catalouge of things that just kept breaking and did you used to go out to a vehicle thinking oh i bet such and such has gone,

 

And can i ask you about your opinions on the chieftian as a whole as far as its good points and its bad points and are the later mark vehicles far better mechanicaly ?

 

would really appreciate any info on this vehicle that you have .

 

thanks

 

Glad you like my vid. As regards reliability of Chieftain, I'm no expert by any means but I did spend 12 years on them crewing all positions ending up as a Crew commander Chieftain. The biggest problem with the early marks was the L60 power pack. The main fault was the main engine liners failing allowing the oil to mix with the coolant, this was normally preceeded by the Chieftain trade mark plumes of white smoke billowing from the exhausts and rear decks and a sweet sickly smell! In the late 70's the L60 underwent a series of major base workshop upgrades to eliminate this. The DB TN12 gear boxes had their moments but were fairly reliable. The main problem with the Gun Control Equipmenmt (GCE) was burn out of the metadines. As MBTs go when it was running smoothly it was, as has been noted historically, the best of its kind during the Cold War and was the first to successfully combine the holy trinity of tank design, Firepower, Mobility and Protection. It's firepower could not be equalled on a tank on tank kill ratio.

[Willyslancs]

Ex Catterick 61-63 , used by my dad in the boot of his morris oxford to keep the car on the road in the snow, when going on leave and driving over the moors........

[RecyMech]

Waggy,

Ah yes, that brought back a memory.....the sickly smell of cooking coolant....let me think what was it called AL-7 or something like that was it ??....& were'nt the bag charge bins filled with the same stuff around the liners ?

 

By the way I never did get to find out what a 'vent tube' was (its been 30 odd years I think I have the term right) .....out of latent curiosity can you fill me in?

 

Cheers.

H

[waggy]

Waggy,

Ah yes, that brought back a memory.....the sickly smell of cooking coolant....let me think what was it called AL-7 or something like that was it ??....& were'nt the bag charge bins filled with the same stuff around the liners ?

 

By the way I never did get to find out what a 'vent tube' was (its been 30 odd years I think I have the term right) .....out of latent curiosity can you fill me in?

 

Cheers.

H

 

H

The bag charge bins did indeed have glass fibre jackets around them which were charged at pressure with coolant, very handy for keeping yer Paderborner pils cool on exercise ;-)

As regards the vent tubes, Chieftain main armament ammo was in two pieces, the projectile and the charge. This cuts down on turret clutter as there is no brass case to dispose of as the charge incinerates totally in the breech. The bag charge needs igniting and the easiest and safest method at the time was by using a vent tube which in effect is an electrically fired ballistite brass cartridge. This ignites the primer pad at the rear of the bag charge which in turn ignites the cordite propellant, the resulting explosion propelling the projectile down the barrel etc.... The vent tubes were held in a magazine at the rear of and underneath the breech ring. The main draw back in the early marks was that each vent tube had to be manually rammed utilising the vent tube loader and in the correct loading sequence for each round fired. They were also prone to not 'firing' due to electrical failure or, very rarely, faulty manufacture.

Regards

Graham

[RecyMech]

Ah, noted.

Ta

H