antarmike Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 As a professional welder, and having been trained in materials technology, I personally would weld the holes and re-machine them. A failure is highly unlikely to be catastrophic on four holes simultaneously. If you keep an eye on the repair, you will see if there is any cracking appearing. Any cracks will be evident long before total failure and letting the wheel go. Balancing is unlikely to be an issue because the repair is near the centre of rotation, and existing variations due to rusting, Carcass misalignment with the rim, unequal wall thickness and out of round on the tyre will have far greater effect than slight variations on material thickness close in to the centre. The effect of the smallest lead balance weight available placed on the rim will be far greater than the possible out of balance due to welding. The wheels were designed pre Computer stressing days so they will be belt and braces over-engineered for the job. A modern wheel in the same application would be carefully stressed on a computer and made out of far thinner metal to save weight. You have a massive safety factor built into the wheel before you start, because in the war you made something that matched current practice, looked right, and withstood punishment and abuse without fail, not some theoretical design concept where everthing is shaved to the barest dimension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 Re the baalnce question... The further out from centre, the graeter effect a given amount of extra metal will have. The Brake drums will be running at a larger radius than the metal in the re-welded stud holes, and the drums are probably cast, and machined in such a way as the wall thickness varies at different points. It is unlikely that the drums have been balanced, so what are the chances that welding the wheel nut holes will have any significant effect, when you already have a huge out of balnce rotating mass. (put on in the right orientation, the wheel may actually improve the balance of the wheel, tyre, tube hub, brakedrum assembly, all of which is rotating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadline Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 While all these scientific quotes are correct, you have to understand that there is a point at which they really don't matter. The MB/GPW is under that point. Since centripetal force is directly proportional to speed and mass. Less speed or mass, less centripetal force. Also, if you look at the weight of welding wire applied (a few grams/oz) vs the force applied by say a pothole, or even turning, it is orders of magnitude less... so again, the effect, overall, it very, very small, well under the the elastic or yield strength of steel. Bottom line, if you don't *FEEL* comfortable, then sell your bum rims and buy new ones (I'm sure ford is still supplying them with each new GPW or Willys with every new MB) but it is a safe and effective repair when done properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritineye Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 (edited) Plenty of people have done similar things, but a few point need watching. The hardest thing about this job would maintaining the original hole PCD, unless a very good jig was made, modern 100mm PCD wheels are sometimes put on old 4" hubs, and the studs have been known to fail due to the 1.6mm miss-match, which the fitter probably hadn't noticed at all. I once had an early Weller steel wheel come off when driving down the road, (fast, V8 LR) I had forgotten to re-tighten them after a few miles, this was necessary because those wheels where not pressed, just flat steel centers with counter sunk holes. OEM pressed wheels have the holes raised and then the counter sink is formed at the same time, the counter sink does not contact the hub behind, there is a small gap, this acts as a spring washer and should eliminate the need for re-tightening. Care must be taken to maintain this feature EDIT just noticed Stormin already covered the jig thing Edited September 22, 2010 by gritineye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 Alternative to jig is to use rotary table on Mill, with the bore of wheel centre clocked true with rotation/ or clamp directly to table on mill and index to each hole centre in turn.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 If the holes in Jeep wheels have gone too big over the years(the metal that the wheel nut touches) ,can they be repaired or best to bin?.... Are you begining to wish you hadn't asked? :cool2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 In the event of a incident involving fatality or serious injury , there will be criminal court , inquest and probably civil court (to apportion blame). At any court there will be "expert witnesses" or a "joint expert witness". To cut a long story short - the info. that he will give to the bench is that the parties completing the weld repair should be able to present as part of their documentary evidence 1) approved weld procedures (normally to such as BS / EN ISO etc. etc. etc. , that is approval by a reputable body (best leave that) 2) if manual welded - Welder approvals , (coded and working within extent of their approvals + time limit). Anything less and you will be hammered in court and your insurance probably void. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willyslancs Posted September 23, 2010 Author Share Posted September 23, 2010 Are you begining to wish you hadn't asked? :cool2: Yep thought that the other night ! was just wondering for when the time comes to use a set........:nut:Cheers for the replies guys!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormin Posted September 23, 2010 Share Posted September 23, 2010 In the event of a incident involving fatality or serious injury , there will be criminal court , inquest and probably civil court (to apportion blame). At any court there will be "expert witnesses" or a "joint expert witness". To cut a long story short - the info. that he will give to the bench is that the parties completing the weld repair should be able to present as part of their documentary evidence 1) approved weld procedures (normally to such as BS / EN ISO etc. etc. etc. , that is approval by a reputable body (best leave that) 2) if manual welded - Welder approvals , (coded and working within extent of their approvals + time limit). Anything less and you will be hammered in court and your insurance probably void. You'll be putting me off doing any repairs to my vehicles with statements like that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadline Posted September 25, 2010 Share Posted September 25, 2010 In the event of a incident involving fatality or serious injury , there will be criminal court , inquest and probably civil court (to apportion blame). At any court there will be "expert witnesses" or a "joint expert witness". To cut a long story short - the info. that he will give to the bench is that the parties completing the weld repair should be able to present as part of their documentary evidence 1) approved weld procedures (normally to such as BS / EN ISO etc. etc. etc. , that is approval by a reputable body (best leave that) 2) if manual welded - Welder approvals , (coded and working within extent of their approvals + time limit). Anything less and you will be hammered in court and your insurance probably void. Yet you service the entire vehicle (brakes, tires, engine) with no worries? Do you have any cites for such a case? I know the US and UK courts are more different than alike, but with such a statement you could never service your own vehicle for fear of lawsuits. Yet stores sell evil items like brake fluid and tools to do such things. If you don't *feel* safe with welded lug holds then don't do it... yet no one has offered to sell their 'worn' rims for cheap... I'll take two please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted September 25, 2010 Share Posted September 25, 2010 Now you are mixed up and are getting way off track with what is acceptable and what is not. The specialist wheel firms probably do have acceptable written and approved procedures , however the US is the Wild West (as is the UK). These firms are of limited liability , a serious case and they bust themselves and set up trading as another limited liability business. Only in recent years has the law regarding directors liability been tightened up here - but there remains sufficient bolt-holes. A individual or a sole trader with assetts to be got at - different ball game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted September 25, 2010 Share Posted September 25, 2010 Now you are mixed up and are getting way off track with what is acceptable and what is not. The specialist wheel firms probably do have acceptable written and approved procedures , however the US is the Wild West (as is the UK). These firms are of limited liability , a serious case and they bust themselves and set up trading as another limited liability business. Only in recent years has the law regarding directors liability been tightened up here - but there remains sufficient bolt-holes. A individual or a sole trader with assetts to be got at - different ball game. Begs the question, if you don't build up worn holes, and they fail because you didn't carry out remedial work that was necessary, are you putting yourself in a difficult position in terms of prosecution and claim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted September 25, 2010 Share Posted September 25, 2010 (edited) The situation has never changed (you will be well aware of such wheel problems and subsequent long history of wheel loss + investigations of wheel fixing nuts & associated problems by RHA & HSE) , periodic thorough examination by competent person , logging of findings - serviceable/unserviceable , appropriate actions , keeping of records. Edited September 25, 2010 by ruxy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxy Posted September 25, 2010 Share Posted September 25, 2010 http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:PVbgIYPbbmsJ:www.rha.uk.net/ContentFiles/Technical%2520Bulletin%2520No%25202.pdf+road+haulage+association+wheel+nuts&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiCHKCOEhXt3WopdL6t9GV_xH4IDR5LgIPAaYfHFA2lWiMjR8KNFnwNzBAUl5o1ZyL-8Zix32Z9Z6d5kSrxZPvrwoFcFfFMXRvqHwsq8V_6KBWnAhHWwMUkJlMB_R07OpxoX9lq&sig=AHIEtbSvXDNGy8EQ-CdVHyNLK7fuhiiSQw Loads of this for you to Google on these dark nights - problem became serious over 25 years ago , more or less sorted now. Light commercials & cars - same problems , same causes , similar solutions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritineye Posted September 25, 2010 Share Posted September 25, 2010 http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:PVbgIYPbbmsJ:www.rha.uk.net/ContentFiles/Technical%2520Bulletin%2520No%25202.pdf+road+haulage+association+wheel+nuts&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiCHKCOEhXt3WopdL6t9GV_xH4IDR5LgIPAaYfHFA2lWiMjR8KNFnwNzBAUl5o1ZyL-8Zix32Z9Z6d5kSrxZPvrwoFcFfFMXRvqHwsq8V_6KBWnAhHWwMUkJlMB_R07OpxoX9lq&sig=AHIEtbSvXDNGy8EQ-CdVHyNLK7fuhiiSQw Loads of this for you to Google on these dark nights - problem became serious over 25 years ago , more or less sorted now. Light commercials & cars - same problems , same causes , similar solutions. Interesting document that, covers the causes of my wheel loss, paint on new wheel mating surfaces and failure to re-tighten, after 25-50 miles, I was having too much fun up to that point and hadn't got to 50 miles! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted September 25, 2010 Share Posted September 25, 2010 (edited) The technical recommendation is to leave brake drums unpainted. Unpainted brake drums dissapaite heat better than painted brakedrums. Pulling up a 7.5 ton truck from 50MPH creates enough heat to melt 1lb of steel. I know jeeps are lighter, but they too would benefit from not painting the drums..... Is paint on the face of brakedrum is as likely to cause problem as new paint on wheels. Edited September 27, 2010 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadline Posted September 26, 2010 Share Posted September 26, 2010 http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:PVbgIYPbbmsJ:www.rha.uk.net/ContentFiles/Technical%2520Bulletin%2520No%25202.pdf+road+haulage+association+wheel+nuts&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiCHKCOEhXt3WopdL6t9GV_xH4IDR5LgIPAaYfHFA2lWiMjR8KNFnwNzBAUl5o1ZyL-8Zix32Z9Z6d5kSrxZPvrwoFcFfFMXRvqHwsq8V_6KBWnAhHWwMUkJlMB_R07OpxoX9lq&sig=AHIEtbSvXDNGy8EQ-CdVHyNLK7fuhiiSQw Loads of this for you to Google on these dark nights - problem became serious over 25 years ago , more or less sorted now. Light commercials & cars - same problems , same causes , similar solutions. This is a completely separate issue. The loss of a wheel is not new phenomenon but in the age of liability and 'governing bodies' it has become some what more 'visible'. The fact is that just about EVERY WHEEL ON EVERY VEHICLE is not installed properly. I can make that statement quite securely because just about every tire shop simply air hammers the lugs on (not checking the torque setting required nor the setting on the air hammer) and how many people get out after 50 miles and recheck the lug torque as per the manufacturer? Show of hands? A car has maybe 20 lugs TOTAL. A commercial truck can have over 20 PER RIM. So statistically the odds are much higher that a commercial vehicle will have a lose or damaged lug. Its simple math... and in the US it is part of the required pre trip inspection that is logged in the drivers logbook (I have several drivers in the family). If you are worried about micro stress heat crack or lawyers then please sell me your bad rims.. they are worth no more than scrap to you. As for the US being the 'wild west' of auto repair I don't think so. We simple have more cars and more experienced mechanics to repair them so to the uninformed it may seem like we do all sorts of illogical things... but they are completely safe. I would like someone to cite a crash or case where the welded lug rims were the root cause. Since it has been stated that welding of the lug holes is 'not safe' then there has to be a crash as a result of this unsafe repair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadline Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 The technical recommendation is to leave brake drums unpainted. Unpainted brake drums dissapaite heat better than painted brakedrums. Pulling up a 7.5 ton truck from 50MPH creates enough hjeat to melt 1lb of steel. I know jeeps are lighter, but they too would benefit from not painting the drums..... Is paint on the face of brakedrum is as likely to cause problem as new paint on wheels. I have yet to see a jeep or a CCKW have charred paint on the brake drums. Drums are cast iron so they have a tremendous amount of heat absorbing capacity. The drums themselves rarely fail.. but the linings do (esp when brass rivets are used). Paint has so little affect on the drums capacity to radiate heat its a non issue. The hubs get hot, and I'm sure mathematically the total amount of joules is sufficient to damage lots of things... but drum brake pads have a huge surface area to spread that over, so on average its not an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 (edited) I have yet to see a jeep or a CCKW have charred paint on the brake drums. Drums are cast iron so they have a tremendous amount of heat absorbing capacity. The drums themselves rarely fail.. but the linings do (esp when brass rivets are used). Paint has so little affect on the drums capacity to radiate heat its a non issue. The hubs get hot, and I'm sure mathematically the total amount of joules is sufficient to damage lots of things... but drum brake pads have a huge surface area to spread that over, so on average its not an issue. Which is why I post that "technically" the recommendation is not to paint them. In some cases painting drums may be a non issue, clearly in other cases it is important not to paint brake drums. I know several instances of vintage vehicles having brake fade, in fact someone I know personally had it happen to him on his journey down to Honiton steam rally. Not painting his drums, as he did, may well have helped prevent this potentially dangerous brake fade. The melting of steel is the heat generated in all the brakes, so divide this by the number of brakes to quantify heat generated at each brake drum. And the figure I quoted is for a 7.5 ton truck. Far less heat generated in a jeep. I posted for general information, not specifically regarding Jeep brakes/ wheels. You are entirely free to ignore technical advice if you want to...... Edited September 27, 2010 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 This is a completely separate issue. The loss of a wheel is not new phenomenon but in the age of liability and 'governing bodies' it has become some what more 'visible'. The fact is that just about EVERY WHEEL ON EVERY VEHICLE is not installed properly. I can make that statement quite securely because just about every tire shop simply air hammers the lugs on (not checking the torque setting required nor the setting on the air hammer) and how many people get out after 50 miles and recheck the lug torque as per the manufacturer? Show of hands? A car has maybe 20 lugs TOTAL. A commercial truck can have over 20 PER RIM. So statistically the odds are much higher that a commercial vehicle will have a lose or damaged lug. Its simple math... and in the US it is part of the required pre trip inspection that is logged in the drivers logbook (I have several drivers in the family). If you are worried about micro stress heat crack or lawyers then please sell me your bad rims.. they are worth no more than scrap to you. As for the US being the 'wild west' of auto repair I don't think so. We simple have more cars and more experienced mechanics to repair them so to the uninformed it may seem like we do all sorts of illogical things... but they are completely safe. I would like someone to cite a crash or case where the welded lug rims were the root cause. Since it has been stated that welding of the lug holes is 'not safe' then there has to be a crash as a result of this unsafe repair. Deadline - it may surprise you to learn that pretty much all tyre shops over here in Blighty wind on nuts with wind, but finish with a hand-powered torque wrench. To be honest I was halfway through packing my belongings to head off to USA for good, thinking it was a far better place to be than here in the clubhouse bar (especially on Wednesdays - that's totally pointless argument evening in the bar) - but now learning that all your tyre shops are inhabited by prototype versions of cro-magnon man I have just cancelled the airport taxi and am busy emptying my suitcase back into my wardrobe (which incidentally is a Radio body off a M Series Reo). But being serious, you've make some good points and argued your case well- but sadly when the discussion turms to using radial arm drills to machine repaired holes in jeeps rims by using axis co-ordinate measuring techniques I think the discussion is lost. After all what an archaic idea - any bright spark nowadays knows the easiest way to go is to machine new combat rims out of solid stock using an EDM (spark erosion) wire cutter and die cutter machine. The whole thing can be done from the comfort of your armchair using a computer linked to the EDM in your garage. Personally I blame Willyslancs for asking the question in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadline Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 Yes, it CAN be a very exacting task.. or you can snug them up and worry about more important things As posted, I simply want to see if I can get a set of these 'defective' and 'irreparable' combat rims for cheap.... I'll use them as.... a.. um... flower pot.. yes, that's it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMF Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 well Mark that just about answers your question, and so rightly said it is all your fault, hehehehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willyslancs Posted September 27, 2010 Author Share Posted September 27, 2010 cheers mate !... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 Well done Mark....who's next in line to wind Mike up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willyslancs Posted September 27, 2010 Author Share Posted September 27, 2010 think i better leave them under the bench with all the other jeep bits (ready for when the next jeep comes along).......:blush: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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