question 25pounder and limber

[chevpol]

ok folks,

 

what licence do you need to tow a 25 pounder and limber?

 

Mark

[Degsy]

This prayer may be applicable to those who give "legal" advice on here

 

Not seen that one before. I particularly like the bit about 'saying something on every subject and every occasion'. Who do you think that might apply to?:cool2:

[antarmike]

Not seen that one before. I particularly like the bit about 'saying something on every subject and every occasion'. Who do you think that might apply to?:cool2:

 

I do hope it's not "flaming" another member on the Forum, who is only trying to calirify whether this combination is legal on the road, because if it doesn't comply with Road Traffic act and C and U regs, then it is illegal, and it doesn't matter what licence you hold, you cannot legally use them on the road.

 

Presumably the original question was aimed at getting an answer to what licence do I need to legally drive this lot. The answer appears to be that NO licence can make it legal to drive this lot.

 

What is the problem with supplying a reasoned, well thought out, logical answer to the question, quoting from current (and past) legislation?

 

Why have a go at me if all I am trying to do is answer the question?

 

Some people appear to live in cloud cuckoo land. The reality is that since at least 1930 the Armed forces did not have to comply with road traffic acts, nor construction and use regs. Civilians have allways had to comply.

 

This means there are a whole load of ex military trailers and motor vehicles that the Army, Air Force and Navy could use legally, that no-one else could use if sold to them. (And use them in ways that Civilians cannot.) Therelevant vehicles date from all time periods, some being pre-WW2, others, WW2 veterans, or fifties, sixties, vehicles and later.

 

That has been the case from before when most of us were born. Why can no-one understand a simple fact?

 

If you wan't to run an ex-military vehicle, choose one that can be legally used by a civilian, not one that is only legal in military ownership/ operation. Nothing has changed recently, this has been the case for over a lifetime.

 

People seem to think things have changed recently, for the worse. In reality things have got better in some respects. (max weight of unbraked trailer (101kgs to 750 Kgs), speed limits( towing two trailer 5MPH in 1950, 20MPH now), max width of a motor tractor (2.286m in 1951, to 2.50 M in the seventies and eighties, and now 2.55m)

 

People think "because something is old it it must have been legal when built, why isn't it now?". The reality is, in most cases, if it isn't legal now, then it wasn't legal in 1943, or 1953 either, it was just on the road by virtue of being an "operated military vehicle"

Edited July 11, 2010 by antarmike

[ruxy]

I would have considered that a tractor , limber and gun - retained all pre-existing rights , however only a Court of Law has final shout.

 

It is always wise to keep up to date with what DfT thinking and opinion is (well this is as recent as 08/3/2010).

 

Dear *.*. *****,

 

Thank you for your enquiry.

 

 

 

I have attached our factsheet on towing with relation to that part of your enquiry.

 

 

 

Regarding the specifics of the ‘Cardiff Bay Road Train’, Under normal circumstances, tourist land trains (such as the one used in Cardiff Bay) cannot legally be used on public roads as they contravene certain aspects of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations (C&U) - in particular, regulation 83 which limits the number of trailers vehicles are permitted to draw. However, land trains are permitted to operate for low speed, sightseeing operations provided the operator has obtained a Vehicle Special Order (or License) issued by the Secretary of State for Transport under section 44 of the Road Traffic Act 1998. If granted, the Vehicle Special Order authorises exceptions from certain aspects of the C&U Regulations subject to terms and conditions specified on the Order.

 

 

 

I hope this is helpful. If you have any further questions please get back to me.

 

 

 

The Department cannot give an authoritative interpretation of the law; that is a matter for the courts.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Martin Rogers

 

DfT – Transport Technology and Standards

[antarmike]

I would have considered that a tractor , limber and gun - retained all pre-existing rights , however only a Court of Law has final shout.

 

It is always wise to keep up to date with what DfT thinking and opinion is (well this is as recent as 08/3/2010).

 

Dear *.*. *****,

 

Thank you for your enquiry.

 

 

 

I have attached our factsheet on towing with relation to that part of your enquiry.

 

 

 

Regarding the specifics of the ‘Cardiff Bay Road Train’, Under normal circumstances, tourist land trains (such as the one used in Cardiff Bay) cannot legally be used on public roads as they contravene certain aspects of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations (C&U) - in particular, regulation 83 which limits the number of trailers vehicles are permitted to draw. However, land trains are permitted to operate for low speed, sightseeing operations provided the operator has obtained a Vehicle Special Order (or License) issued by the Secretary of State for Transport under section 44 of the Road Traffic Act 1998. If granted, the Vehicle Special Order authorises exceptions from certain aspects of the C&U Regulations subject to terms and conditions specified on the Order.

 

 

 

I hope this is helpful. If you have any further questions please get back to me.

 

 

 

The Department cannot give an authoritative interpretation of the law; that is a matter for the courts.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Martin Rogers

 

DfT – Transport Technology and Standards

 

 

There are no pre-existing rights, this combination never appears to have been legal in civilian ownership.

 

The moral being, if you want to drive Quad/ limber/ 25 pounder, then you have to apply for a VSO and if it is granted abide by any restrictions attached to that individual order. VSO are issued at the disgression of the Secretary of State, and you may or may not get one. They are not an automatic right, and even if issued for a period of time, they can be revoked before the expiry of the Order.

 

Without one this lot doesn't appear to be legal on the road.

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?17128-Special-Types-Vehicle-Problems-A-Possible-Solution

Edited July 12, 2010 by antarmike

[antarmike]

Turn table is intregal to the gun. It is attached by mechanical fittings. You can get them off but it would be a 'mechanical ' job.

 

The turntable can also be carried on top of the No27 Limber, so may not be part of the gun. If on top of the limber it would be a load, so why is it not a load if carried below the 25 Pounder?

If it does not require "the use of facilities normally found in a workshop," to drop the turntable from the gun, then it is a load. The turntable could be removed by the guncrew, in the field, It does not require workshop facilities to do this, it is therefore I suggest a load.

Edited November 26, 2010 by antarmike

[Stefano]

I'm going to start off by saying thank you to Antarmike for having the patience to look into things and tell them like they are, not how we would all like them to be. Something about piano players comes to mind..

Whatever, as you can tell from my signature I badly want a Quad, and yes, I have every intention to use it once I've got it. So this is a potted rendition of the law in Italy (the rest of Europe may or may not be the same, but I think that it could well be similar):

Every axle must be braked, period, and having an emergency hand operated brake as opposed to something that comes into play when you hit the pedal is probably not really an option, so that's basically that for the 25pdr in normal road use.

On top of that, every trailer must have a seperate logbook (therefore numberplate), unless you get them classified as "appendici", or adjuncts to the towing vehicle (this means that they cannot be attatched to any other vehicle, ever again). I'd have to look into weight limitations but there may be a chance that I'd get away with being able to use the N° 27 on the road like that.

However, seeing as the N°27 probably weighs more than 750kg with tools and equipment (no shells lads), I'll need to add the E to my C licence (still working on that, there's been a bit of a hiatus with testing since the end of last year).

BUT, (and this is the good bit), if the Quad, limber and 25pdr have undergone an examination that certifies that they are as good as they came out of the factory or thereabouts (so no diesel engines or other funny stuff) they can be issued with a temporary registration certificate that basically exempts them from most of the above, as long as the vehicle is used going to, during, and coming back from a rally that has been officially approved by the powers that be (the Prefetto - I doubt if there is an equivalent in the UK). This means that your insurance policy also covers you in the same way. Since I honestly can't even see me taking up that much of the law (two trailers on Italian mountain roads - no thanks), I'm quite a happy bunny.

All I've got to do is get my E licence (and a Quad of course)

And Mike is perfectly correct - the law has been getting steadily more lenient as time goes on - If we'd tried to take a tank onto the roads twenty years ago we would have probably gotten shot at, rally or no rally, because it would have been the easy option to trying to recite the amount of laws we'd broken in one fell swoop.

Anyone got a Quad?

Stefano

Edited July 11, 2010 by Stefano

[Tony B]

Waht about the tail board and sides of a trailer Mike? Or the partion in a horse box? Slide off loading ramps? All fit the same sort of description as the table. and how many Angels dancing on pins are you allowed to carry?

Care for join me for a pint of Brandy and a Vallium snadwich? :-D

[antarmike]

What about the tail board and sides of a trailer Mike? Or the partion in a horse box? Slide off loading ramps? All fit the same sort of description as the table. and how many Angels dancing on pins are you allowed to carry?

Care for join me for a pint of Brandy and a Vallium snadwich? :-D

 

Sounds like an offer worth further concideration....

[Blackpowder44]

Stefano,I used to own the perfect vehicle for mountainous roads in Italy.It was a Fiat SPA TL37 Artillery tractor, far in advanced engineering to British or American towing vehicles of WWII. It had four wheel drive, four wheel steering, a dif lock lever which,if you missed a gear on steep ground the diff locked and you would not roll back but it allowed you to engage the forward gear and moove off.I was lucky to meet a number of British gunner vets who had used them in North Africa, they said that the SPA was a godsend in the Desert. John.

[Tony B]

Is that the beast that was based on the WW1 artilley tractors? The articulated ones?

[Blackpowder44]

Is that the beast that was based on the WW1 artilley tractors? The articulated ones?

Tony, I know the one you mean, it had bicycle type spoked wheels. The SPA may well be based on the one you refer to. The TL37 has a rigid frame and all four wheels steer and it had four propshafts. John.

[alan turner (RIP)]

Snag was in the 50's only a couple of people out of 100 could afford quad set, scrappies and garages,I have access to photos from 1952 that show what in that time were about £500 of military vehicles for sale, included triple CMP polstens, M6 HStractors, AEC A/c, Carriers, dingoes, and AEC Dorchester ACV's. Adrian B saw them last week.

 

But a blokes average wage was about 50bob if he was lucky, so the most he could afford to play with was the family motor bike and side car and pay the rent each week from it. We are lucky today to have more playtime income.

 

The vehicles that are sought after come from a different time and are lucky to survive, with on the whole laws keeping pace to allow the hobby to continue and long may it do so.

 

Didnt Attlee, Truman and Stalin have the idea that to keep everyone quiet and placid keep em scared! or was that Logans Run?

[ChasSomT.]

I like Stefano's - 'Funny stuff' - Diesel engines !

With this, and the 'Overwidth Issue',

Don't we ''Just' need a 'Simple' (!) Exemption clause to the C + U Regs. :-

'and previously exempt Military Vehicles ' . . . . .

Our 'Legislators' can rush through legislation THEY deem neccessary, without 'Full debate'

Surely a 'Simple' amendment NEED'NT be too difficult to 'Clarify' the situation !

[antarmike]

I like Stefano's - 'Funny stuff' - Diesel engines !

With this, and the 'Overwidth Issue',

Don't we ''Just' need a 'Simple' (!) Exemption clause to the C + U Regs. :-

'and previously exempt Military Vehicles ' . . . . .

Our 'Legislators' can rush through legislation THEY deem neccessary, without 'Full debate'

Surely a 'Simple' amendment NEED'NT be too difficult to 'Clarify' the situation !

Not without agreement from the EU. EU law comes first, then British Law harmonises with EU law, Is it likely EU want to see this change????

 

Pigs fuelled and ready for take-off

 

(and what possible justification do you see for running a 1.8Tonne unbraked trailer, that exceeds half the weight of the towing Vehicle, when a car cannot tow more than 750 Kgs as an unbraked trailer, and only then if the car is more than twice as heavy as the unbraked trailer?).

 

Reality check needed here, I think,.....

Edited July 11, 2010 by antarmike

[Stefano]

I like Stefano's - 'Funny stuff' - Diesel engines !

With this, and the 'Overwidth Issue',

Don't we ''Just' need a 'Simple' (!) Exemption clause to the C + U Regs. :-

'and previously exempt Military Vehicles ' . . . . .

Our 'Legislators' can rush through legislation THEY deem neccessary, without 'Full debate'

Surely a 'Simple' amendment NEED'NT be too difficult to 'Clarify' the situation !

 

It wasn't intended to be denigratory, far from it. It's just that engine swops aren't generally allowed in Italy. As for the European aspect, I agree absolutely, and would have thought that the FBHVC might want to take up some aspects of what's been talked about on the forum, via the MVT perhaps.

[Marmite!!]

Thread cleaned up, if members keep bringing politics into the thread & members having snipes at each other the thread will be locked..

[eddy8men]

hi fella's

i was at the ponderosa show today and there were 3 complete tractor, gun and limber combinations there but i'm afraid i didn't think to ask the guys about what licenses were required but i would assume they were local mvt members so south yorkshire branch maybe a good place to ask.

 

eddy

[antarmike]

With regards to road Transport law, I hadn't realised that in 1953, the wartime procedures were still in place and that anyone who was over 21 and who held a car licence (group A) could drive an HGV without holding an HGV licence.

 

The wartime expediency of allowing any car driver over 21 to drive HGV, because so many proffesional HGV drivers were in the forces, is talked about as due to come to an end, and when the relaxation is removed, then ,once agin , only professional drivers holding an HGV would be allowed to drive HGV's

Does anyone know when the wartime relaxation on the HGV licencing laws actually ended?

[Tony B]

With regards to road Transport law, I hadn't realised that in 1953, the wartime procedures were still in place and that anyone who was over 21 and who held a car licence (group A) could drive an HGV without holding an HGV licence.

 

The wartime expediency of allowing any car driver over 21 to drive HGV, because so many proffesional HGV drivers were in the forces, is talked about as due to come to an end, and when the relaxation is removed, then ,once agin , only professional drivers holding an HGV would be allowed to drive HGV's

Does anyone know when the wartime relaxation on the HGV licencing laws actually ended?

 

Hummm or has it? :cool2: Would we be that lucky? there is a lot of old tat still on the legislative books.

[antarmike]

Hummm or has it? :cool2: Would we be that lucky? there is a lot of old tat still on the legislative books.

 

The exemption that allowed a car licence holder to drive PSV's ended July 31st 1952, although the possibility existed that it may be extended to October 31st of that year.

 

In 1953 a class A car licence allowed one to drive, Heavy Locomotive, light Locomotive, motor tractor, motor car, heavy motor car, motor tricycle with means to engage reverse, but excluded categories B,C,D, E and F. If over 21 also allowed driving any HGV.

[Richard Farrant]

With regards to road Transport law, I hadn't realised that in 1953, the wartime procedures were still in place and that anyone who was over 21 and who held a car licence (group A) could drive an HGV without holding an HGV licence.

 

The wartime expediency of allowing any car driver over 21 to drive HGV, because so many proffesional HGV drivers were in the forces, is talked about as due to come to an end, and when the relaxation is removed, then ,once agin , only professional drivers holding an HGV would be allowed to drive HGV's

Does anyone know when the wartime relaxation on the HGV licencing laws actually ended?

 

My late father never ever took a driving test as they were suspended at the start of the war. As he was on war work in railway workshops, he had to drive. After the war he drove lorries for a good many years. I always looked on him as a safe and careful driver.

[Sean N]

Snag was in the 50's only a couple of people out of 100 could afford quad set, scrappies and garages,I have access to photos from 1952 that show what in that time were about £500 of military vehicles for sale, included triple CMP polstens, M6 HStractors, AEC A/c, Carriers, dingoes, and AEC Dorchester ACV's. Adrian B saw them last week.

 

But a blokes average wage was about 50bob if he was lucky, so the most he could afford to play with was the family motor bike and side car and pay the rent each week from it....

 

A few years ago I was involved in a discussion about military surplus vehicle prices compared with those post WW2. Out of interest, I compared prices for Bedford 3 tonners from a 1948 Ruddington sale with those being achieved by Bedford TK GS trucks at the then current Aston Down sales (mid 1990s). In terms of average weekly earnings, the prices were almost exactly the same...

[Sean N]

Thinking about it, I seem to remember that the Quad, limber and 25 pdr that used to go to GDSF used to turn up on a Leyland DAF flatbed tuck with the Quad on, towing a flat trailer with the gun and limber on. Don't know whether this was for legality or just convenience. Anyone confirm that?

[Richard Farrant]

Thinking about it, I seem to remember that the Quad, limber and 25 pdr that used to go to GDSF used to turn up on a Leyland DAF flatbed tuck with the Quad on, towing a flat trailer with the gun and limber on. Don't know whether this was for legality or just convenience. Anyone confirm that?

 

If that is the sand painted one, I think it belonged to a RA section based at Bovington, seen the complete outfit many times taking part in the HCVS London to Brighton run.

[antarmike]

Thinking about it, I seem to remember that the Quad, limber and 25 pdr that used to go to GDSF used to turn up on a Leyland DAF flatbed tuck with the Quad on, towing a flat trailer with the gun and limber on. Don't know whether this was for legality or just convenience. Anyone confirm that?

 

I nosed the 25 Pouinder onto a low loader at Dorset at the end of the show, many years ago with my Douglas.