A SAD ENDING? WW1 Memorial Stone

[snowtracdave]

If this was a TV programme, we'd all be sitting enthralled, I'm guessing;......the amount of infomation you guys are comming up with,..............AMAZING..............

 

 

 

Would it make a television programme ? Is there anyone amongst us with any contacts in those sort of circles ? Surely this is exactly the sort of thing that would make an excellent & educational (sorry - dirty word I know)documentary

DM

[Tony B]

Channel five are always intrested in things like this. You just e mail them.

It would be nice to have a bankroll on this, research can get expensive.

[Rick W]

N.O.S. I can only download a bit of that diary, any chance of emailing the attachment to me, or posting it in full? We may be able to locate more or less where he fell, and if we're lucky, have some photos of the area.

There is a website which provides a cd of trech maps but that costs shillings!

Im sure Britain at War magazine would love this bit of detective work. Do you want to swing the gears into motion Jack or shall I? ;-)

[Tony B]

N.O.S. I can only download a bit of that diary, any chance of emailing the attachment to me, or posting it in full? We may be able to locate more or less where he fell, and if we're lucky, have some photos of the area.

There is a website which provides a cd of trech maps but that costs shillings!

Im sure Britain at War magazine would love this bit of detective work. Do you want to swing the gears into motion Jack or shall I? ;-)

 

I've got the IWM photo panorama book. I'll See if there are any of the area about that time.

[Rick W]

Here is the medical card.

 

It says:

K / I / 102B101876

Something that looks like BWW? rets for adt crv 1151 / B.H. 1221

Bo ? ? 605/B ? 6013 AD?

 

E / 647378 / 3

6013 / ADT ??

 

Thats the medal card, not medical card! ;-) Every soldier in WW1 had these, they can be quite revealing. If only I knew what the scribbles were? All available through the National Archive.

[N.O.S.]

This is the extract from ORDERS Book covering the Raid in with Private Jackson is wounded in Feb 1917.

 

1/NORFOLK REGIMENT

 

Orders for Raid by 'B' Coy, North of the FERME DU BOIS, on the night of the 26th/27th inst (Feb 1917)

 

Reference Map - RICHEBOURG. 36.5W3, 1/10,000

Point of entry - 5.16a.85/10

 

There will be 3 main parties -

(a) The Blocking Party at 5.16a.85/05

(b) The main Raiding Party, will move northwards to the trench leading to the dug-outs, at 5.16a.90/30

© The Mopping-Up Party, which will move from the point of entry northwards, along the main firing line to 5.16a.70/3

There will also be a small party under an Officer at the point of entry for dealing with prisoners.

All parties will enter at the same point of entry in the above orders.

There will be a covering party of 1 Lewis Gun and team and 4 bombers at 5.16a.70/05

All parties will rendezvous 15 minutes before Zero Hour along the (?) track between5.16a.70/05 and 5.16a.50/35. The parties will be formed up along the (?) track from North to South in the following order- ©, (b) and (a)

2/Lt G.E.INGLE will be at the advanced rendezvous with a telephone at 5.16a.70/05

The retirement will be done as soon as the objective has been obtained and the damage to the dug-outs completed.

Parties will retire by the same route as they entered.

Each party, as it leaves the point of entry, will leave a blocking party in the trenches in which they have been working, about 15 yds fom the point of entry. As soon as everyone except the 3 blocking parties are out, the blocking parties will then withdraw under orders of the Officer at the point of entry.

There will be one man with each party who will be entirely responsible for the collection of prisoners, papers and identifications, etc. from German dead. Prisoners will be immediately disarmed and passed back to the officer at the point of entry.

All identifications and papers will be removed before the raid, and all ranks must be warned that, if captured, they are only to give their number, name and Regiment.

The parties will consist as under -

(a) The Blocking party - 6 Bayonet men, 6 Bombers and CSM ROSE.

(b) The main Raiding Party - Will be divided into3 parties - (d), (e) and (f)

(d) and (e) parties will separate at 5.16a.90/22.

(d) party will work along NORA TRENCH to the point 5.16a.00/22.

(e) party will work northwards from 5.16a.90/22 to the point 5.16a.90/30

(f) party will be the party for collecting prisoners and damaging dug-outs.

(d) and (e) parties will each consist of 4 bombers and 4 Bayonet men, each under an NCO (all under Capt.E.C.KELLY)

(f) party will consist of 1 NCO, 4 RE's with moble charges, and 4 Bayonet men to collect prisoners and identificaions from dug-outs.

© The 'Mopping - up' party will consistof 2/Lt.J.H.CHAPMAN, 6 bombers and 6 bayonet men

2/L.B.F.H.BUTTERFIELD and 6 men will be at the point of entry for seeing to the collection of prisoners.

There will be a party of 1 Sgt and 5 men who will clear the gap in the wire during the raid so as to enable the parties to get out as quickly as possible.

 

[N.O.S.]

N.O.S. I can only download a bit of that diary, any chance of emailing the attachment to me, or posting it in full?

 

 

Rick - I've modified posting and put the full text on post, rather than use attached file. If you wish, I will scan the original handwritten documents and email or post to you.

Tony

[Rick W]

Thanks, will look at them tomorrow.Ive half a mind to email C4's Time team. I have tentative links with them, unless anyone has any objections? It would be right up their street! ;-)

[abn deuce]

WOW , with more and more document and archives becoming available on the WWW you guys have come so far in so short a time , just thinking how many months or more it might have taken using snail mail and phone and perhaps still not gotten as much information this quickly!!!!

Keep up the great work with each document you take a step closer to knowing this solder his family and his unit .

[Tony B]

Might be worth trying Alistar Fraser, he is the histrian for No mans land, at least he knows where to look.http://www.fylde.demon.co.uk/fraser.htm. I do have his e mail address.

[N.O.S.]

Here is the extract from War Diary covering the Raid of Feb 1917.

The entry in bold shows our man being wounded.

 

Date/Hour

 

17th - 21st (Feb 1917)

In trenches in the FERME DU BOIS Section. The thaw set in during this tour after the very hard frosts making the trenches in a bad state. Trench Mortars were active during this tour, especially in cutting the enemy's wire.

 

21st

Relieved by 1st Battalion Cheshire Regt. and withdrew to billets at SENECHAL FARM and KINGS ROAD.

 

21st - 25th

In billets. Company Training continued throughout the Rest. 'B' Coy. practised for raid during the next tour of trenches on a marked out course.

 

25th

Relieved 1st Cheshires in the FERME DU BOIS Sector 16th Royal Warwicks on the right and the Kensingtons on our left.

 

26th 11.pm

The Battalion raiding parties commenced to leave our trenches and worked out gradually to the point of assembly in "No Mans' Land".

 

27th 12.5am

The enemy fired two parachute very lights into the middle of the party who, although lying absolutely flat, could be easily seen and must have been seen by the enemy. The raiding party heard a German Sentry rush back immediately down a Communications Trench and they then heard Germans rushing up to the front line as quick as they could. O.C. Raid, Capt. E.C. KELLY, considered that in spite of this when the barrage opened on their front line that it would give the party time to get up and into the enemy's trenches before it lifted while the enemy still had their heads down.

 

12.15am

The barrage opened on the enemy's lines. Our men dashed forward and reached the enemy parapat as the barrage lifted.

 

12.18am

The barrage lifted and our men reached the parapat. The enemy were prepared for them and opened heavy rifle and machine gun fire at once. They also bombed our men as they came up preventing them from entering the enemy trenches, although they managed to throw some bombs into the enemy trenches and cause them some casualties.

 

12.20am

Lt. G.E. INGLE, who was with the telephone in "No Mans' Land", realising the situation, telephoned back for the artillery barrage to be brought back again on to the front line. At the same time I gave the order forthe party to withdraw as best they could.

The party withdrew gradually, leaving 2 men killed on the enemy's parapat. The whole party returned to our lines and the wounded were all brought in by 4.am.

The enemy barrage our front line and communication trenches the whole time from 12.22am till 3.am

The raid failed owing to the parties being spotted 15 minutes before Zero hour, hence giving the Germans time to be prepared and the raid in consequence not being a surprise.

Orders for the raid are attached.

Our casualties - Other Ranks - 2 killed, 1 wounded and missing, 18 wounded (2 remained at duty).

 

8.am

Relieved half Co. of 16th Royal Warwicks on the right, thus extending our front from 1800 yds to 2100 yds.

 

27th

Relieved in trenches by the "Rangers", (12th London Regiment). Relief completed by 3.15pm.

 

 

 

I'm a bit lost for words now........... this took place at a time when Great War Truck's jalopies, narrow gauge supply railways and the odd tank were the only mechanised help available, even they must have been a rare sight to the men in the trenches.

[N.O.S.]

There is a website which provides a cd of trench maps but that costs shillings!

 

 

Suppose its my fault this started - I don't know what I'm looking at when it comes to trench maps, but if you can get hold of a cd, I'll glady fund it. My problem is time at present.

[Rick W]

Ive got to see if I can find the website again! Richebourg is a place you can see on google maps Richebourg Pas de Calais Nord.

[Tony B]

I'm having trouble pinning the area down. Are we in the Bethune Neuvele Chappeelle area?

[David Ives]

the raid that is written is the earlier raid in 1917 where he was injured the raid wherehe was killed has yet to be put up

[Rick W]

Yes Tony, I think Neuve Chapelle it to the North.

David i think you may have a point there, have we got the date wrong on this N.O.S. ?

A couple of pics to be going on with from the town of Richebourg from the time.

Richebourg Church

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o72/rik242_2006/eglise.jpg[/img]

Trench, a very wet one, Richebourg area

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o72/rik242_2006/wet_trench.jpg[/img]

The wonders of www!

[David Ives]

no he was injured in 1917 and killed ina seperate action 1918

[N.O.S.]

Sorry guys, I put the extracts from the War Diary for the Raid in which he died (attack and taking of Beugny, 1918) first, as a file attachment to my posting.

 

Next came the Orders for the Raid 1917 in which he was injured, finally the extract from War Diary for this raid.

 

I realised the file attachment was causing problems, so I re-wrote it on the posting as a modification, so if you go back to it all should be clear.

 

I do not know if there is anything in the Orders record held at Regiment museum for the Beugny attack, I will find out, but curator is unavailable until mid next week.

[N.O.S.]

Our curator also offered to would look for a photogaph of Jackson, a half-decent chance she reckons, but again next week.

[David Ives]

have just read the attack details again so the troops were between beugny and fremicourt

quote:- Battalion moved to assembly positions, South of railway, between FREMICOURT & BEUGNY prior to attack on BEUGNY village and objective East of village

so if you look at the map on page 5 you will see that very close together as for the exact position he died i dont think we would ever know as lines moved quickly

my best advice as to where to place the stone would be to contact the church where he was christened and see if his stone could be laid to rest there or at the norfolks regiment museum where it would be given proper place of remberance along with all the information we have found out about him so all would know about this one soldier especially if we get a photo of him

[N.O.S.]

Time for a brew up and regroup!

 

Main Objective:

 

Went from wondering what one might do with a stone to -

 

1) Decide what to do with the stone!

 

To do this, we needed to know where he fell, and whether there might be a suitable location for the stone.

 

Secondary Objectives:

 

2) Evidence of place of death of soldier

3) Evidence of existing relatives (if any)

4) Understand the circumstances of the war leading up to the soldier's death

 

In doing this we have a built up a significant amount of interesting information on the campaign, which really helps to put this soldier's sacrifice into context.

Family information is lacking, we don't appear to have a hold on this yet. I for one am no genealogist, I find it difficult to get a grasp on the tools available.

How far do we / should we go with this family search? (possible media help?)

 

Other Objectives:

 

5) Seek publicity to sustain/develop awareness of WW1 and significance of Armistice Day

6) Educate ourselves and others in the process!

 

At present this is all on a members-only thread, the information coming out including pictures, maps is astonishing, and I for one am finding it extremely educational - all the info is out there, but without a tangible grip (which is what Jackson is giving me) it is only for those with a real interest already. Perhaps our soldier could give others a grasp on the reality of WW1?

 

Shortlist of possible Locations considered so far:

 

a) Battle area in France (not permitted within Commonwealth Cemetery)

b) In care of family (unknown)

c) Local (to soldier's home) Churchyard

d) Regimental museum (no space!)

e) War Graves Commission Store (in basement of Chelsea Hospital)

 

Of the above,

 

if (e) then it is safe but, without awareness, it becomes just a stone.

if © then again safe, but the story is lost unless the church allows a plaque or something to accompany it.

(b) is not yet an option, seems very unlikely that we'll find a close enough link.

(d) does not seem possible, much as they would like it they are desperate for space - we could perhaps press the Regimental Association?

 

This leaves (a), subject to finding a spot acceptable to the local community.

 

Any other ideas for resting place?

 

In terms of objective 5, Publicity -

 

This could become a great tale, weaving into an overview of WW1, the tale of a soldier's memorial, a forum-based group of interested people, a bit of WW1 mechanisation (Tim's trucks, and Bovington tank museum exhibits could add some wonderful interest here). Be it TV documentary, magazine article, or basis for a book.

 

It could be just a modest article in a local paper, it might be strong enough for a national to run with.

 

If it went national in some way then the Forum and its members can be involved, but they become unfairly of less interest if just a local story.

 

:dunno: :dunno: :dunno: Meantime just keep on coming with those fantastic pictures, maps, information and anything else which places this soldier within the context of our freedom.

 

[David Ives]

one other choice is to contact the school at thetford to see if they are intersted as he joined there and his name is on the memorial

the school would keep his name alive

[N.O.S.]

Thetford School - good idea. Any more?

 

http://www.great-war-trench-maps.com £85 + vat :shake:

[Rick W]

Tea and cake time....

 

I think before we try and decide what to do with the stone we should maybe see if there is any village interest or living relatives who would like a say. There were a couple of jacksons in the area, I dont know if these were related or not, but they put in a planning application for an extension 2 years ago! I think the best cause of action would be to find out what the local paper is for the village and ring them up, tell them the story, or give them the link to this thread.(I dont know if they could read it not being members?)

That should not only bring up any living members of the family, but maybe stories and even photos etc. Its free, and for a 5 minute phone call, could be the most productive. Especially with the advent of Armistice.

Ive been rtying this afternoon to get in touch with a copmany called VideoText communications Ltd. They are a production company with a historical leaning, to see if they have any interest, you never know. I cant seem to find their contact details though! Got a snail mail address but no telephone number or email.

 

So for my ha'pennysworth i say next step , local paper. :tup:

[Jack]

Britain at war magazine have been emailed and directed to this thread.

 

Keep this up, it is very specia.