A SAD ENDING? WW1 Memorial Stone

[Rick W]

I would save your brainpower on that! Im going to ring up the local paper given half a chance today, unless you want to do that being more local. Primarily to see if theyve any archives, but could also ask them if there is any info on surviving family by means of doing an article. I think if you go down the family history route its a whole different can 'o' worms and can get very complex. Save your sanity and refocus! 8-)

[Rick W]

Trench maps, trench maps, trench maps..... :shake:

There are thousands of them, all kept at the National Archive. I didnt know a lot about trench maps until I started looking at this! Rang up the National Archive and spoke to a very nice lady who took me through the buttons on the website 'til we got there. I wouldnt have found them otherwise!

They come in various shapes and sizes and are generally kept in order of location. General trench maps which are, if I remember rightly 1:50,000 righ down to 1:5,000 for individual raids on villages etc! Even more detailed maps are usually kept with War Diaries. Ive posted the link below if you wanted to have a browse. If you find an area you are interested in you can order a digital copy, usually within a few minutes. Thats my weekend sorted then.......!

 

 

 

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/browser.asp?CATLN=3&CATID=13356&GPE=False&DOWN=FALSE&MARKER=1663000&MARKERSCN=

[Rick W]

Trench map update..

Well my eyes feel like they are dripping out of their sockets :schocked:

Ive found the maps for the Ferme Du Bois section, where our man was first wounded, hopefully I will have them for Monday. Ive never really seen what details a map can give you so that should be interesting. Ive got up to map number2347, out of 6649. Its quite hard going, trying to work it out. Ive had enough for today... :help:

[Tony B]

Rick, trench maps are a nightmare. Each unit gave places diffrent names. they were always changing. Now you know why the history always comes up with the phrase 'Communication failed'. Keep at it, makes ww2 look very straightforward.

[CanadianScottish]

I had the great privilege to be involved in the dedication of a memorial to Christopher Cox VC, a stretcher bearer from the Bedfords on the Somme this year. The ceremony was attended by the Royal Anglians who I would suggest are also the successors to the Norfolks.

If there is a desire & consensus to place the stone in France I would be delighted to assist with useful contacts both in The UK and in the Somme area who can help make this happen at an official level.

[N.O.S.]

If there is a desire & consensus to place the stone in France I would be delighted to assist with useful contacts both in The UK and in the Somme area who can help make this happen at an official level.

 

 

I hope this goes the way in which you can become involved in this respect.

 

Plan regarding family matters is to have informal discussion with local press and Thetford School (hopefuly Monday) before deciding wheher to go any futher.

 

My view is that the circumstances of the stone coming to auction are enough to give the FORUM free reign to choose an appropriate place.

 

Meanwhile the TRENCH MAP team are digging furiously to uncover some wonderful detail of the campaign.

 

This coupled with Joris's site work (take a good supply of frites and mayonnaise :whistle:) will enable a very informative write up of the story.

 

A shame we did not have more time before Armistice Day to conclude all this, but we're not far off thanks to everyones' effort.

 

[Tony B]

hey you started it, were just chipping in our 2 pence worth. Bet you've got the Great War bug, sorry but like the Green disease, incurable.

[Tony B]

Trench map update..

Well my eyes feel like they are dripping out of their sockets :schocked:

Ive found the maps for the Ferme Du Bois section, where our man was first wounded, hopefully I will have them for Monday. Ive never really seen what details a map can give you so that should be interesting. Ive got up to map number2347, out of 6649. Its quite hard going, trying to work it out. Ive had enough for today... :help:

 

Rick can you give me the geographic locations? I'll check the panoramas I've got to see if there are any. I'm having problems pinning the area down.

[Rick W]

Thats what Im going on.

 

Orders for Raid by 'B' Coy, North of the FERME DU BOIS, on the night of the 26th/27th inst (Feb 1917)

 

Reference Map - RICHEBOURG. 36.5W3, 1/10,000

Point of entry - 5.16a.85/10

 

Think the clues there are Richebourg(Obviously) and its based on a 1/10'000 scale map. The point of entry, I think, refers to a trench sector.

 

[N.O.S.]

 

Reference Map - RICHEBOURG. 36.5W3, 1/10,000

Point of entry - 5.16a.85/10

 

 

 

This could be 36.SW3 - very difficult to tell from photocopied handwriting.

SW might make more sense, refering to south west :dunno: If so, :oops2:

[David Ives]

i did say earlier map 57c nw4 for beungy the other loc was where he was injured

[Tony B]

i did say earlier map 57c nw4 for beungy the other loc was where he was injured

 

Ta David the brain has been to full of smoke from 101 wiring latley :roll:

[Tony B]

Der me have to much smoke in lungs from frying 101 and petrol from cut volvo lines and computer blowing up. Such a bad day I've come here for sanity :shake: thanks for the place clarification.

[Rick W]

You should try gettingnto grips with trench maps! If they dont expand your mind nothing will! :rtfm:

[Tony B]

You should try gettingnto grips with trench maps! If they dont expand your mind nothing will! :rtfm:

 

Mind blowing is more the thing. Just imagine trying to navigate at night, no lights in rain with shells falling. :shake:

[Rick W]

Just received the copy of the trench map from the National Archive in digital format. Its the map of the Ferme Du Bois area contemporary when our man got injured. Its a fairly big download at 1MB. I tried to print out a version but the file is too large. (Can you help Joris?) If you save it to your computer you should be able to view a large version. Kings Road is clearly marked, I have yet to examine it in detail to compare with a modern version. I would have liked to see more o the No Mans Land but they didnt send it. I may ring them at some point and try and get it in with the price.

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o72/rik242_2006/trenchmap.jpg[/img]

[Snapper]

I am sorry I have come to this wonderful string so late. Ironically, I was in France last week. In any case - I attach some snaps of Red Cross Corner cemetery, which is near Arras. I went there this time last year to visit the grave of Edward Venus who died in December 1917, and had worked in the press room of The Times, hence my interest. I visit a lot of cemeteries and usually photograph graves on a random basis - and I'm sorry that none of the names mentioned are included even though the cemetery is a small one.

 

I do think you should approach your local branch of the Western Front Association for assistance. It is highly likely that there will be someone in the branch who knows a great deal about the Norfolks and the organisation as a whole may well be able to assist and advise a placement. For example you may be able to negotiate with the land owner to have the memorial placed on the cemetery boundary as opposed to within it - which is impossible. I am no expert.

 

WFA branch chairman for Norwich and Waveney is Major Richard Wilson MBE, Hockham Lodge, Shropham, Attleborough, Norfolk NR17 1ED.

 

Alternatively, I can speak to Peter Last the chairman of the Southend branch, who is a brilliant bloke.

 

 

[Snapper]

I forgot to say that the very fact that you chose to save this memorial puts you at the very highest in my estimation. All credit to you.

[N.O.S.]

It wasn't me , I must have overheard the voices inside Tony B's head :dunno:

It was the Forum made me do it, no doubt about that.

 

Thanks for the pics of the cemetery - what a peaceful spot.

 

This morning I sought the view of the Sec. of the Anglians Association (includes the Norfolks and Sufolks), who is also a trustee of the Norfolk Regiment Museum. He is very keen to help in securing an appropriate home for the stone.

 

I will get in touch with your Norwich WFA contact - thanks for that. Again, I had no idea all these groups existed!

[Tony B]

It wasn't me , I must have overheard the voices inside Tony B's head :dunno:

It was the Forum made me do it, no doubt about that.

 

Thanks for the pics of the cemetery - what a peaceful spot.

 

This morning I sought the view of the Sec. of the Anglians Association (includes the Norfolks and Sufolks), who is also a trustee of the Norfolk Regiment Museum. He is very keen to help in securing an appropriate home for the stone.

 

I will get in touch with your Norwich WFA contact - thanks for that. Again, I had no idea all these groups existed!

 

Now this is sort of blame I'm more than willing to take :-D Everyone who has contributed has proved their worth. the great War will in the next couple of years dissappear from living memory. This is the last chance to seriously consolidate things and pass the baton on. (Gad. I'm sounding pompous :shake:)

[Rick W]

If you do get in touch with the WFA Im sfter an "overview" map if you like of the trench maps. Im sure they exist as original trench maps have them on their cover from what I can make out. You know the type of thing you get on then back of the OS maps, showing a map of the UK with all the separate maps numbered and your particular one highlighted? Thats what I need to work out the other relating map ares.

Example

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o72/rik242_2006/trenchmap3.jpg[/img]

Or even if we could see a copy of the Favreuil area.

[Tony B]

The ideal would be latitude and longitude, that will link to Google earth etc, sat navs and modern maps. Funny how the old system ids coming back.

[N.O.S.]

The ideal would be latitude and longitude

 

 

Which point do you need co-ordinates for?

 

Also if you can give me a trench map reference for the approximate area I might be able to get a copy of the cover for that one which should link you to what you need.

 

Are you after these for both Favreuil and Beugny areas, or just the former?

 

I hope to meet with the WFA guy tonight/tomorrow.

 

[Tony B]

Just had a look at my map collection, sod's law I have the modern ones nearby. The French map site is http://www.ign.fr the modern maps that I'll try to get are the Serie Blueue, 1:25,000 the area maps are about 2507E and 2508E. These cover form Cambri to St Quentin. Late shift so got to go and start work. :shake:

[Snapper]

This is all brilliant. The IGN maps are excellent equivalents to OS and as Tony says can be bought over the web. They are 9 euros fifty or so on the web - but after I bought four for the Somme area (they can be infuriating in the way they split where you want to go) I found they were cheaper in the Thiepval visitor centre - but I couldn't care less.

 

Tony and Rick will know that the WFA have a trench map library which can provide copies. My mates John used them to go to the exact spot within a yard or so, where Ian's Great Grandfather Isaac Phillips of the North Staffs was killed at Arras. His name is on the memorial to the missing at Faubourg D'Arras - a stunning place.

 

I've passed word of this quest around a few chums and it may be you will get more help. Sounds like you've started something here.....

 

Tony B makes fine points about WW1. We tend to ignore it - all those little men in black and white walking round like Charlie Chaplin. They seem light years off. When my son James stood on a live French hand grenade at Maltz Horn farm a couple of Sundays back, it tells us that this is not the case. The farmer had helpfully chucked it on the grass verge where we were having an after dinner stroll. 25,000 men are thought to lay, lost, in the fields around Guillemont all killed in the autumn of 1916 for the gain of one obliterated village. Doing our bit for one man makes everything so perfect when you take this into consideration. James is fine, in case you were wondering..............