important 3 churchills to be scrapped if not sold

Rick I am baffled by the museums lack of interest in these British historic artifacts and have decided to offer my BergePanther wreck to another museum :-) Well done for trying mate ! You are a credit to your hobby :-)

Rick I am baffled by the museums lack of interest in these British historic artifacts

"we don't want em, screw everyone else" :-( ?

Well done for trying mate ! You are a credit to your hobby :-)

thanks guys but the truth is I still failed. although there was nothing else i could have done without spending some time in a german prison.

anyway it has strengthen my resolve to try harder next time !

rick

thanks guys but the truth is I still failed. although there was nothing else i could have done without spending some time in a german prison.

anyway it has strengthen my resolve to try harder next time !

 

rick

You did not fail, rick, you merely did not succeed, because at least you made the huge effort to do something, and that is something I can respect.

Just think of yourself merely at the Dunkirk stage

trevor

What a shame these iconic vehicles won't be saved even though you tried your best.

It's hard not to see this as one last parting shot from the German's, ...................... 70 years after the fall of Berlin :laugh:

the good news is that there is still tons of stuff out there, and hopefully in the hands of people who want to make money and not just melt down metal.

DON'T MENTION THE WAR

to be fair the scrap yard guys were sound it was some higher authority that got wind of it and decided it was easier to say no. the thing that bugs me is he could have just as easily said yes, it would have been no skin of his nose. anyway no use crying over spilt milk. I searched the net last night and found 57 matilda's and crusaders at the bottom of the med and a tiger in a german pond ! that should keep me busy until war and peace !

rick

Does remind me of the wrecking yard dealers I used to deal with when I restored classic cars. A cantankerous, uncooperative, bunch of sour jack-asses who's business model had nothing to do with preservation or making money. They were Kings of their own little ****-pile and they were bent on making sure you knew it too.

 

LOL, there are a bunch of these around -- and not just in scrap business!!

the yard guys were ok, it was the marketing director that objected who was at another site but got wind of it anyway, that put a stop to the whole thing. in future I will try to go through the official channels before it gets to the scrapper.

 

i have learned my lesson and i am going to contact david willey at the tank museum and ask him if in future he gets an offer but doesn't take it up then for him to pass it on to me because you know I won't let them get cut up or at least I will put the word out

 

the funny (or not) thing is the tank museum would have benefited greatly as john pearson is restoring their mk7 and I am helping john so all the spares that I would have provided will never materialise now, also the Swedish tank museum got in touch with regard to their mk3 and the Belgians also need spares. so 3 museum churchills that will not get done now. f#@king makes me angry.

I dunno if this ship has sailed, but may be worth reaching out to German embassy in UK and work the political angle. If a museum and preservation are in play (rather than just profits), it's likely they would support some intervention. Just a thought, I know this is a steep hill to climb. The other thought is to contact the bosses at the scrap yard through an attorney and offer them an indemnity against claims. Sure, you are taking a risk, but chances of something coming back at you are 1 in a million.

DON'T MENTION THE WAR

and a tiger in a german pond ! that should keep me busy until war and peace !

 

rick

I tried one last time on sunday to get the spares but the german guy I was in contact with asked me not to try to put any more pressure on the yard as it would ruin any future chance of a deal to salvage anything and the rate they were cutting them up they might be already gone to the smelting pot. so that was that. unless a museum gets involved there's nothing I can do and the museums were already approached before they even left the ranges !

rick

... and the museums were already approached before they even left the ranges !

 

rick

This seems to me the crucial factor.

You can't get too excited about the scrapyard's part in it; as has been said it's likely they have a contract, breach of which might jeopardise future contracts.

Without knowing the ins and outs it's difficult to be too critical of the museums in one way; who was offered the vehicles, what were the circumstances at the time, were they being asked to buy them, what else was going on at the time and so on.

As we've already said though, it's a shame the chance to save unique vehicles and / or contribute to the restoration of a number of other Churchills has been lost perhaps just through a lack of communication. Might it be the case that museums can't tout these vehicles around outside other museums and like organisations? Or did they just not think of it, or not know who to contact?

In any case, it's clear that the way to save these things is to intercept them before they even get onto a scrap contract.

You need to define the word *museum(s)* , I get the impression that state owned museums , military regimental type museums and in fact private museums (that have legal charity status) don't like private ownership museums or "collections" esp. if they are in the ownership of a single person. That statement carries good for a single vehicle or a case of hundreds of tracked / wheeled that has recently had high press coverage. Case of sod-em ,,

Couldn't agree more Ruxy! Having said that, if the Tank Museum were told 'they're yours if you come and get them' what could they do, they do not have the budget to transport or restore them and the days of tasking an RCT unit to do it are long gone.

If they passed it on to others, they might not get offered something next time that they really could do with. The phrase 'sh1t happens' comes to mind but at least you are better prepared for a future opportunity Rick!

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/07/03/german_army_battles_1943_panzer_hidden_kiel_pensioner_cellar/

I wish I could read and speak German , I suppose I can always use internet translation , if I only had the time LoL

http://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Weltkriegspanzer-in-Ostsee-Villa-geborgen-article15433571.html

Looks like the Bar-O-Mix job for the type28 is on hold , need to start digging deep for the garage bunker ,,

http://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Weltkriegspanzer-in-Ostsee-Villa-geborgen-article15433571.html

Holy Crap, they found a complete PANTHER in some 70 year old guys basement :wow:

I remember the original pre-story to this though, some tax collectors raided an elderly guys apartment and found stolen WW2 art, some looted from museum and people who were sent to Concentration camps. Police wound up seizing the collection. That I can understand to some extent, assuming the premise for the original intrusion into someones private home was legal in the first place. From what I can tell from the Google translation, that raid led to this "discovery" .

This second story though is really screwed up though. This guy has had this vehicle sine the early 70's, and he bought it legally in the UK and imported in the 70's. He claims it's all demilitarized and registered. The mayor of the town said he remembers this guy driving the thing around in a huge blizzard of 1978.

now the dam government sends in the army and seizes his private property? Wow, that is really ****ed up. Here in the US you still need a legal court order to conduct a raid and size private property, at least for now.

As a complete, original, un-restored Panther it's worth millions of $. All the tools and attachments are still on it, it will be interesting to see how much of that gets looted while in the possession of the army in some storage depot.

I hope he gets it back, and sues the government for all the trouble too.

BTW, is this one listed on the Shadock PDF's?

I wish I could read and speak German , I suppose I can always use internet translation , if I only had the time LoL

 

 

Its easy to translate, just a right click, this was another website;

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/BV.aspx?ref=IE8Activity&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ndr.de%2Fnachrichten%2Fschleswig-holstein%2FErfolgreich-Kampfpanzer-aus-Villa-geborgen%2Cmunitionsfund124.html

If this is the one from the Surrey scrapyard, then the authorities have been slow to catch on that this owner was in breach of the (German) law.

If this is the one from the Surrey scrapyard, then the authorities have been slow to catch on that this owner was in breach of the (German) law.

That would conflict with reports of this one being driven around the town in 1978

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=548534

Couldn't agree more Ruxy! Having said that, if the Tank Museum were told 'they're yours if you come and get them' what could they do, they do not have the budget to transport or restore them...

 

Well... if that was the case, could they really not have passed the information to someone or done what they could to ensure the vehicles were saved?

If they passed it on to others, they might not get offered something next time that they really could do with

You know a lot more about this than I do, Adrian, but really? Would they really be that self-interested at the expense of preserving unique vehicles or helping restore several other projects? People are only human, and there are some odd attitudes around, but if so it seems somewhat self serving and short sighted.

To me, this is THEFT

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Sammler-parkt-Panzer-im-Keller-article15420231.html&usg=ALkJrhikjXUR47XBaQ0mKJqfsFfcCl5ZBA

The exhaust look like reproductions, can anyone confirm? A or G model?

looks like they siezed his flak 88 too ,

Lets just see what happens, if anything is permanently seized or any one convicted.

But it was mention in one of the articles that the search was related to this http://www.thelocal.de/20150521/police-discover-hitlers-lost-bronze-horses. and those statues in the garden here looked very much like the ones from the Reichtag.... so the owner might not be without guilt.

and those statues in the garden here looked very much like the ones from the Reichtag.... so the owner might not be without guilt.

second, even if the statues are somehow deemed illegal, does that give them the right to randomly size anything else they see of value?

Reminds me of the RICO laws here, if the police stop you while driving, and find a large amount of cash, they can seize your money (basically " arrest" your money), without arresting you or even accusing you of a crime. You then have to go to Court and prove you didn't get the money from selling drugs.

This is opposite of how the law is written, which is that you are innocent until proven guilty. In other words the government has to prove you did something wrong, not your responsibility to prove you did not.