No Signals Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 The info I have on 2TAF states that, given that all vehicle painting was in a state of transistion, the move was to an overall olive green, all vehicles bore a white five pointed star on cabin tops or bonnets - not a roundel. But RAF vehicles had roundels marked on their side surfaces. A particular feature of 2TAF was the large size of the roundels which some of the heavy vehicles carried. No doubt to help avoid 'friendly fire'. RAF units carried a unit serial number marked on the cab. Front roundels were applied to the nearside wing/front rather than the usual offside. The only formation markings carried were the group numbers;2,83,84 or 85. Vehicles also carried a black painted area on the cab so that a 'convoy position' number could be chalked on. A 'type number' was also given to vehicles but sorry I cant see a number for jeeps on the list I have. This information taken from 'Wheels of the RAF'. Excuse the quality of the pics taken from this same publication. (copyright E F Cheesman) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Doesn't the 4th Picture in post #7 show the Roundel on opposite sides of two vehicles, in each others company. Surely this shows that there was no fixed position for the roundel, and although one position may be more common than another, in reality, anything goes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Thats how I see it, Scc2 was being replaced by UK OD. Just after D Day the requirent to use SCC14 black over the OD was cancelled. The roundal moved to the near side. The marking would be TAF/83 or 84 etc. I don't recall seeing the big anti friendly fire roundal on Jeeps I think it was as stated for larger vehicles that would be static on landing grounds. The RAF reg could be stencilled on the bumpers / bumperette Will look for some jeep piccies. TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carruthers Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Thanks for the info everyone. Yes I had noticed that the roundel could appear on either side too. In the Wartime Jeep in Brit Jeeps service and Typhoon and Tempest at War it shows bonnet roundels, although I'm guessing it could have been over painted the original star. Sample reg numberwould be great Ted. Brilliant refueller pic!!! Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Doesn't the 4th Picture in post #7 show the Roundel on opposite sides of two vehicles, in each others company. Surely this shows that there was no fixed position for the roundel, and although one position may be more common than another, in reality, anything goes? Hi Mike, prior to the intro of the 9" roundal for MT, RAF was on each side of the vehicle in white using screwed- on metal letters, this was replaced by signwriting/stencilled paint. To aid identification at road blocks, traffic controls etc the practise crept in of putting RAF in the corner of the windscreen; it would appear in some cases some units actually put a small roundal. The AMO that introduced the 9" roundal for MT vehicles makes it very clear the purpose of having the roundal on the front of the vehicle is to aid traffic control. The order calls for it to be on the offside of the vehicle. This was never changed for the UK. The same AMO calls for the Command/group or wing marking to be above the roundal. The bridge class circle could be in any convenient position. . Overseas, where traffic drove on the right hand side of the road it was normal practise to put the roundal on the opposite side of the vehicle so it would continue to be seen by traffic control. Plus on crossing the channel the offside is now the other side of the vehicle. Markings overseas were under the remitt of the AOC in C or Cin C of that theatre and AMOs would not necessarily apply. So turning to your AEC bowser the B/3 is non conforming and in the 2TAF photos all the 9" roundals should be on the left side of the vehicle looking forward . However having related chapter and verse from the AMOs we all know that possibly 75% of pictures of RAF MT in WW2 show markings that do not conform !! regards TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Signals Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 (edited) Sample reg numberwould be great Ted. Simon If it helps Simon, my 1944 MW is RAF 128700. Could be a reference point for working either way from it. A pic I have of an early post-war jeep in a UK based Mountain Rescue Unit has the number RAF 208343 Edited March 18, 2009 by No Signals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted March 18, 2009 Share Posted March 18, 2009 Gents I have RAF207135 it was a Willy in use as a crsh rescue tender at Boscombe Down early 1949. Duncan this is not a million miles from your 208343. I have a shot of the RAF Landwrog MRT their Willys is RAF 63576 its very clear on the bumper so must be from a much earlier batch ?? All the piccies I have lead me to think the majority carried the reg stenciled on the bumper. TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Signals Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Another MRT jeep number from a wartime pic 207865, another probably something along the lines of 17***33, but very covered in mud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedawnpatrol Posted April 3, 2009 Author Share Posted April 3, 2009 Here is another photo of a Guy Ant with Light Warning Body. Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefano Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Matt is acepted, but Satin has the major advantage, it is much easier to clean. I used to work on a MOD site that had the packing/finishing department. Sounds odd but their job was to test all the packaging and paints etc used by MOD. The head of the department was a real paint anorack, I once made the mistake of asking which paint to use on a Land Rover chassis, the answer was about two hours. He always recommended satin type finish. The MOD changed to this proably mid seventies as it was easier to decontaminate. I just know that I'm in for some flak here, but never mind... Judging from the photo of the hillman tilly, I would say that it's painted S.C.C. 2 / S.C.C. 14 Blue/black disruptive to the standard Roots Group pattern. There's far too much contrast for the disruptive to be S.C.C. 1A very dk. brown. As regards Satin vs. Matt finish, my rational is that if the b****y things were painted matt back then they should be painted matt now. I know that RR supply eggshell finish because "that's what everybody wants"(quote), but that doesn't mean that it was the correct finish. As it is, I painted my Triumph in Matt S.C.C. 2 just before Normandy '94, and 15 years later, due to wear and copious amounts of WD 40 over the years, it's looking decidedly "eggshell". The chances are that an eggshell finish will take on a semi gloss finish after a few years, and never attain the "patina" that makes an older restoration look authentic. I well remember a veteran driving my friends' Universal Carrier back in '99 that could not believe that we'd actually restored it. Well, that's what I think anyway. I will now go into a dark corner and wait for the bombs to rain down........... Stef. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivor Ramsden Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 I'm with you on this one, Stefano. RR recommended that I should use satin finish paint on the Morris C9/B but I insisted on matt. I'm pleased that I did. It does mark a little bit, but not as badly as they suggested and it looks like it will become shiny where it's touched regularly but I think that will give it an authentic patina. You can see this effect on many close-up photos of vehicles in service. Our problem with the MVs that we own and show for a period of years is that we can't possibly replicate and maintain the damage, and dirt that develops on a military vehicle which is in daily, heavy use for a short period of time; much less than a year for a D-Day period vehicle on active service. For example they show newly-damaged areas of bare metal but hardly any rust, whereas ours go rusty where they've lost paint and develop a patina of age. I would prefer to see a matt-finish vehicle with a dodgy patina than something with a satin finish. I suppose I'm lucky that the Morris lives indoors because I'm sure that a matt finish would deteriorate very quickly outside. One thing I haven't had to do yet is wash it. Maybe my opinion on matt finish would change if I did and it marked badly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 (edited) Comments welcomed Shot taken 23rd Jan 1943. Edited April 18, 2009 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Thats taken at RAF Cardington note the truck is still running on its Middlesex reg and shows no RAF serial. It is now apparent that many batches of these Fordsons including the balloon Winches ran on their civvy reg through out their service. I have found a Kings regulation dated 1941 which states one a vehicle is issued with a identification number it will not and must not be changed or replaced. TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
79x100 Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 A CMP not identified in the caption from the IWM archive showing again the roundel on the blanking plate. Tunisia 1943. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 Comments welcomed Shot taken 23rd Jan 1943. Mike this is IWM CH 8326 taken during a photo session at the MT school 9-10 dec 1942. according to the IWM site.. This is a really clean copy did you spend money ?? TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 This piccy is in the book on the history of 51 MT co RAF, the officer in the CMP is convoy commander Pilot Officer Carter, They are leaving Libya for Tunisia. The book is called Desert Wheels published by Woodfield Publishing, a great little book which I think will interest you and Mike and the others who are into the old RAF stuff. TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Here's a picture from another forum where the emhasis was the ME109 captured by the British - my question is about truck in the background with "Starter" written on it. Can any of you RAF experts tell me more about it, I wondered if it is a Pre-Heater van? Noel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Noel certainly looks like a Commer pre heater van I am trying to think where I have some technical detail about it. I would guess that a modification has been carried out to provide a power supply for aircraft engine starting. haven't a clue about the voltage used in German aircraft ... But 28v dc was the UK spec in the early 1950s trolley accs gave 24v and that did the job but once trailer mounted ground power units came along they gave out 28v as an aside for interest, larger aircraft used 28v dc & 112 v DC . then with the MK2 V bombers 28v dc and 200v 3 phase at 400 c.p.s. TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Another Photo question, if I may? The photo below seems to show an RAF vehicle coming ashore at Omaha, it is from http://omahabeach.mulberry.free.fr/ [it is known that an RAF radar unit landed at Omaha, some men landing on D-Day] I was wondering if anyone can make aything of the (official) markings on the cab - some seem to be "American style" e.g 9*9P... and the Spade (playnig card suit) on the off-side. Cheers, Noel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim3343 Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I have been digging into the whole WW2 colour story hi Ted, I'm trying to decide what colour to use for the RAF jeep I'm currently working on and have been reading all what's been posted here (see my posted question on http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?17110-colour-of-WW2-RAF-jeep). First I had decided to use the RAF blue (grey) but after reading what's in this post, about regulations for colours, I thought of going for brown and dark brown. However, I've been reading this post just now: http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?5280-RAF-Blue-Jeep&highlight=RAF+blue, indicating that it would very well be possible to have seen RAF blue jeeps during WW2 as well. As you seem to be an authority, I'd like to hear what you think about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Tim have sent you a PM TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schliesser92 Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Here's a picture from another forum where the emhasis was the ME109 captured by the British - my question is about truck in the background with "Starter" written on it. Can any of you RAF experts tell me more about it, I wondered if it is a Pre-Heater van?Noel If you look at the vehicle closely you'll see the word "STARTER" painted on the side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted angus Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Noel, does make the point it had Starter painted on the side ; his point being it is indeed a Commer preheater van . The vehicle mounted starter has never been an RAF piece of kit, always trailer mounted starting with the 1930s trolley acc through to the current 90KwCummins powered GPU sets for AWACS. The best guess is that this heater van has been locally modified to utilise its on board dynamo for aircraft starting. The pre heater kit was basically a engine driving a fan which passed air through a set of tubes around which was a combustion chamber, The engine drove a fairly meaty dynamo system to produce the volts for the ignition for both the combustion chamber and the engine TED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryH57 Posted May 6, 2010 Share Posted May 6, 2010 Ted, I presume you have a copy of Mike Starmer's book - British Army Colours & Disruptive Camo in UK, France & NW Europe 1936-45? What do you reckon to the colour chips on page 40? Are they a good match for the same colours used by the RAF that you described earlier in this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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