question WW2 RAF Vehicles

[thedawnpatrol]

Does any one have any original photos of Vehicles in RAF service ?

I am looking for details of the painting of the RAF Number and the Cockade.

Ideally any trucks, but what ever you have.

 

Jules

[6 X 6]

Does any one have any original photos of Vehicles in RAF service ?

I am looking for details of the painting of the RAF Number and the Cockade.

Ideally any trucks, but what ever you have.

 

Jules

 

You may wish to get in touch with forum member Ted Angus who is very knowledgeable about RAF vehicles.

[ted angus]

Jules the roundal should be on the right hand (looking forward) wing; It should be positioned so it can be seen if you were approaching a traffic control etc. The command abd group letter/number code should be above the roundal. The bridge class circle should also be on the front .

The placing of the RAF vehicle number was no so strict. as long as it is on the front and back then that will suffice. If the vehicle was fitted with a front number plate then it was placed on there.

Sometimes it was on both doors biut often only on the offside. On a vehicle with a bonnet it could be on either or just the offside. On Bedford QLs it was sometimes above the windscreen. There was an official diagram illustrating this information. I found the Air Ministry code for the document known as an AIR DIAGRAM but neither the RAF Museum or Air Historical branch have a copy. compare th2 shots attached of the QL named CALADONIA roundal beidge plate below it RAF number only on one door. More piccies to follow.

 

TED

[ted angus]

The attached taken sept 1941 is a classic of correct marking. Roundal with the M for Maintenance Command . The RAF reg on the number plate and the dual bridge class facing forward in a prominent position. I would guess at this date the colour is RAF Blue Grey but more likely Khaki Green No 3. In recent months I have been digging deeply into the RAF records re colour and markings; I have made great progress but I will never get the full story as some documents are not availible in their original unamended form. It is becoming apparent that some vehicles never received an RAF reg or serial number but continued on their pre spring 1941 Middlesex County Council reg number.

Let me know what vehicle what period and what theatre of operations and I will do my best to give you what the good book said which often was not happened in reality.

 

regards TED

[ted angus]

Final post for tonight, The attached was taken in 1943 when squadrons earmarked for the soon to be formed Tactical Air Force started to live a nomadic life under canvas in preperation for the assualt on Europe. The attached is a Bedford OX tractor with a Taskers high loading 20ft trailer.

The Bedford has the roundal with F/83 above F fighter command 83 for 83 group. 83 group was formed as a unit that would cross the channel, initially it was under HQ Fighter Command , transferring shortly after to TAF , The RAF reg can be seen both on the door and bumper.

 

TED

[6 X 6]

Ted, you rotter ! Fancy not putting these wonderful photographs on the forum before now. Seriously, thank you for sharing them. It makes me wonder what other treasures you have hidden away.

 

That Commer certainly doesn't look compliant with the latest Euroweasle thinking on HGV rear view mirrors. Ted, can you see enough of the wing section on the Commer's trailer to make a guess at what type of aircraft it might be ? Thanks.

Edited March 12, 2009 by 6 X 6

[Ivor Ramsden]

Here's a few photos of RAF vehicles in the Western Desert. The three pictures of CMPs in light stone colour are all from 92 Squadron - the squadron codes QJ are on the doors, although inked out on some of the photos. These were taken in November/December 1942.

 

The other two are of vehicles belonging to an RAF fuel unit, date unknown. It's interesting to see how, with the whole of the North African desert to pee in, the lads do it against their trucks!

 

None of these vehicles has an RAF number. Why is that, Ted?

[thedawnpatrol]

Hello Ted

Thank you for being so quick to answer with some very interesting photos.

 

Well, My question is back to my old subject of my WOT2 Light Warning truck,

 

I have made my mind up to restore it as an RAF vehicle, I was inspired by your photo of the Guy Ant Light Warning truck on my other thread, the one in Bomber Command markings.............

 

So it is with this in mind and also the other pictures on that thread that I want to copy.

 

I assume that the B/26 would be correct on the front wing and rear (as that photo) and the roundel, would it be ok to put 'RAF' and number on the door sides ?

Not sure what number to use, any ideas? and would this be the same as the 'number plate'?

 

My bigest dilemma is what colours to paint the truck, I like the idea of the Brown base (RAF Dark Earth) with Dark Green cammo, just like the aircraft and lots of vehicles, but you will also see from the original photos, again on my 'Light Warning' thread, that the 'Mickey Mouse' pattern was used, could this be in the above colours or was the 'MM' always in Black ?

 

I would really apreachate you imput Ted.

 

Kind regards

 

Julian.

[ted angus]

Ted, you rotter ! Fancy not putting these wonderful photographs on the forum before now. Seriously, thank you for sharing them. It makes me wonder what other treasures you have hidden away.

 

That Commer certainly doesn't look compliant with the latest Euroweasle thinking on HGV rear view mirrors. Ted, can you see enough of the wing section on the Commer's trailer to make a guess at what type of aircraft it might be ? Thanks.

 

The original piccy which I cannot find at the moment has the plane type on it I am sure its a Beaufort. What do you want mirrors for !!!LOL

TED

[ted angus]

Here's a few photos of RAF vehicles in the Western Desert. The three pictures of CMPs in light stone colour are all from 92 Squadron - the squadron codes QJ are on the doors, although inked out on some of the photos. These were taken in November/December 1942.

 

The other two are of vehicles belonging to an RAF fuel unit, date unknown. It's interesting to see how, with the whole of the North African desert to pee in, the lads do it against their trucks!

 

None of these vehicles has an RAF number. Why is that, Ted?

 

Great shots thanks for putting them on, The practise of putting the Sqn code in big letters was common in Africa Greece etc it was an anti theft device !! THe trucks in your piccies all have either Army or WD serials. I suppose they were issued from depots overseas and there wasn't the admin supporet to undertake the cancellation of the original reg and issue ofv a new one, plus I believe the WD reg was required by the Egyption authorities. I have even seen in UK origin photos RAF operated trucks with Army numbers the piccy of the B/26 light warning truck being a typical example

 

re the peeing against the truck have you ever turned yours to a sand blasting wind ??? I reckon its a bit dangerous !!!!!

regards TED

[ted angus]

Hello Ted

Thank you for being so quick to answer with some very interesting photos.

 

Well, My question is back to my old subject of my WOT2 Light Warning truck,

 

I have made my mind up to restore it as an RAF vehicle, I was inspired by your photo of the Guy Ant Light Warning truck on my other thread, the one in Bomber Command markings.............

 

So it is with this in mind and also the other pictures on that thread that I want to copy.

 

I assume that the B/26 would be correct on the front wing and rear (as that photo) and the roundel, would it be ok to put 'RAF' and number on the door sides ?

Not sure what number to use, any ideas? and would this be the same as the 'number plate'?

 

My bigest dilemma is what colours to paint the truck, I like the idea of the Brown base (RAF Dark Earth) with Dark Green cammo, just like the aircraft and lots of vehicles, but you will also see from the original photos, again on my 'Light Warning' thread, that the 'Mickey Mouse' pattern was used, could this be in the above colours or was the 'MM' always in Black ?

 

I would really apreachate you imput Ted.

 

Kind regards

 

Julian.

 

Hi Julian apologies I forgot about your light warning truck; RAF dark earth to the british standard with Dk Green camo was never a standard vehicle finish. It was no doubt used during the ad hoc cam days of the Battle of Britian , but in August 1941 the RAF formally adopted the same schemes as the Army. initially it was Khaki Green No 3 with dark tarmac green No 4, then SCC4 which was a brown with SCC 1A which was a very dark brown SCC 1A was replaced by SCC 14 black. Then came UK olive drab SCC 15 with black, then UK OD on its own.

 

I am currently reserarching these colours but its a long slog as its at least a 4 week turn around to order stuff from the RAF museum . Mickey Mouse Cam although very common was never an official ARMY or RAF pattern it was initially the result of applying cam by spray using templates. Units were instructed to modify the MM pattern on next repaint to conform with MTP 46 which gave the recommended patterns. However pictures of vehicles in service mostly show MM . I would be looking at SCC2 brown with SCC14 black but obtaining the correct shades would be a problem .

Where are you situated ?? You decide a date and I will let you know the most likely colour

 

regards TED

[thedawnpatrol]

Thanks Ted,

 

Well, a date...............My truck was built in late 1943/early 44.

What has foxed me is, when you see restored Ford WOT2's nearly all are brown with green camo, (not MM).

You have seen photos of mine on my other thread, the green is far to 'US Olive Drab' for my liking, I do think that the Black Camo patt. is correct though?

 

I want my truck to look like an RAF 'Light Warning' Truck used in 1944. I like the look of the picture that was posted on my thread, I want the paint to be dead matt like the originals.

 

So, there you have it, I have no RAF Number, so will have to make it up, any thoughts ?

Over to you Ted.

 

( I don't like what it is at the moment though!)

 

I am in Oxfordshire.

 

Cheers

 

Jules

[thedawnpatrol]

Sorry, I should have added.....................

 

What do you think the colours of the WOT in the above photo are ?

 

Jules

[les freathy]

Ted the aircraft on the trailer is a beaufort the photo is one of a set i have, i reconise the photo is one of the set i put up in another web set long ago it has a green tint and then i had not worked out the use of colour saturation and the pointer was on green hence a tinted B/W photo

[Snapper]

Fantastic info. Cheers, Ted and everyone else. I like this stuff. More please.

[ted angus]

Ted the aircraft on the trailer is a beaufort the photo is one of a set i have, i reconise the photo is one of the set i put up in another web set long ago it has a green tint and then i had not worked out the use of colour saturation and the pointer was on green hence a tinted B/W photo

 

Hello Les, I believe the original of that photo had a Dodge (Kew ) RAF lorry in the background of one corner and an RAF reference to the photo along the bottom. I cropped the photo as it shows a vehicle with a text book set of marking. Problem is I cannot find the original now I spent 3 hours this morning going throuh all my photo files and couldn't find it. I had it in my mind I either got the original from yourself or from a forum. Now I know I was right But thanks to the Cyber Gremlins I cannot find the original Arghhhhh !! Hope you are well

regards TED

[Stefano]

Sorry, I should have added.....................

 

What do you think the colours of the WOT in the above photo are ?

 

Jules

 

Hiya,

Judging from the low contrast between the two colours I would say that the WOT2 in the photo is in S.C.C. 2 (brown) with a S.C.C. 1A (very dark brown) disrupter. When I get round to painting mine (once I've found the bits to rebuild the back axle..) I'll be doing it S.C.C. 2 / S.C.C. 14 (blue-black) disruptive.

Brilliant vehicle by the way, wonderful to drive.

Cheers,

Stefano

[T corbin]

Light earth & dark earth between DEC 1942 to SEP 1943 .The ground and paint look the same .( BELTERING )

[ted angus]

Tony, as you are possibly aware I have been digging into the whole WW2 colour story and now have a mass of AMOs etc from Hendon, and I have to say I don't draw the same conclusions that you have from the AMO A1397 of 1942 that you have posted . Early 1942 saw the both the Army and RAF change from the previous colours, (some were BS colours & others were from the Nobels range) to the war emergency Standard Camouflage Colours (SCC) range.

 

In the AMO you have posted the 2 finishing colours are 33A /560 Brown Special No.2 on top of which is 33A/ 562 Brown Dark ( MT) for wood & metal surfaces and 33A/ 561 Bitumious emulsion colour No 1a for canvas.

 

No 2 and No 1 A are reference to the SCC range of colours ie SCC2 Brown and SCC 1A Dark Brown.

 

A later AMO A891 of 1943 gives a change with 33A /570 black replacing the 33A /562 Dark Brown. This later AMO give much more detail than AMO A 1397 of 1942, it repeatedly states 33A/ 560 Brown Special No 2 is to SCC 2 with 33A /570 Black to SCC14.

 

So returning to your AMO A1397 of 1942 there is no doubt that the Brown is SCC2 which is slightly darker than the British Standard dark earth, and all the evidence is that the dark Brown is SCC1A which is in fact an extremely dark brown so dark in fact that in some light conditions looks almost black.

 

So thats my conclusion; Whilst I have total admiration for your WOT1 and the outstanding restoration I cannot aree with your conclusion that the colours in AMO 1397 of 1942 translate to Lt & Dk Earth. Your thoughts please

 

regards TED

[thedawnpatrol]

Thank you Ted, and all you others, I have also been in touch with Mike Starmer who also has carried out much research on this subject and he agrees that the colours on the original photo of the WOT above would be SCC2 Brown basic with SCC1a Dark Brown disrupter.

 

So, armed with this info, thank you all, and look out for my RAF WOT2 Light Warning Truck in these colours!

 

Jules

[ted angus]

Jules this is possibly the best shot of that period. SCC2 is the base colour comparing the dark colour with the car behind I would guess the dark colour is SCC 1A although it could be SCC 14 black.

 

regards TED

[thedawnpatrol]

Yes, Ted I think you are right it is the two shades of Brown.

That is a lovely photo, any idea of the year ?

I have two sample cards from RR Services paint range, one is 'RAF Dark Earth' which is a match for SCC2, the other is called 'Service brown' which is very dark and I believe it is a match for SCC1a.

 

So, thats my colours sorted, but next question, what about the finish, Satin or Matt ?

 

Jules

[Tony B]

Matt is acepted, but Satin has the major advantage, it is much easier to clean. I used to work on a MOD site that had the packing/finishing department. Sounds odd but their job was to test all the packaging and paints etc used by MOD. The head of the department was a real paint anorack, I once made the mistake of asking which paint to use on a Land Rover chassis, the answer was about two hours. He always recommended satin type finish. The MOD changed to this proably mid seventies as it was easier to decontaminate.

[ted angus]

Tony , In the days when we had an RAF that was fully manned and funded, corrosion was rarely seen on MT or ground support equipment as in the UK we were using Gloss RAF blue grey on MT and Gloss traffic blue on GSE and kit was being repainted at the set intervals.

In 74 we had the mad panic to "tone down" and IRR Green became the order of the day. Even meeting repaint dates corrosion set in much quicker and due to the porousity of the coats dirt and oil became a real pain to remove from surfaces.

Although not authentic I would use satin, if I was repainting now. At the end of the day who ever is paying the bill calls the tune !!

 

Jules comparing a BS DK Earth chip to what is thought to be the nearest SCC2 chip there is a difference but not much, and the colour SCC2 has many times been refered to as Dark Earth although it isn't.

THE only SCC colour that had a name in the actual Standard Document was SCC 15 olive drab.

Certainly when giving a nomenclature to any paint the RAF always came up with the long winded term paint special PFU etc etc with Brown being used for SCC2 and Dark Brown for SCC1A . In documents they would put a little note such and such must conform to SCC x or Y

I have seen SCC1A described as Service Brown but it appears to be darker than the British Standard SERVICE BROWN . Another thing to bear in might a particular colour adopts a totally different hue & tone between Matt Satin and Gloss.

Some researchers when examining old paintwork assume it has faded with age, there is a trap here, from experience I can tell you Gloss Deep Bronze Green starts to darken within weeks of application until it takes on a very dark tone. Some greens fade, some darken. Brown appears to behave in a different way and retains its original colour. In the old disposal site near moenchengladbach some IRR on RLs had gone almost light pea green , some had gone nearly black ?/ ammo boxes always seem to be very resistant to fade or darkening.

Enough from me

 

TED

[Carruthers]

As this thread is generally about RAF WW2 finish, I hope it's Ok to ask a related question here Jules/Ted.

 

I'm just repainting my Jeep with 2 TAF markings, I have a few photos but they are hard to find, but appear to consist of a roundel on the bonnet and driver's side windscreen. The wing number and 2/TAF on the passenger side of the bonnet and the same on the bumper front and back. Can anyone confirmis this is correct or not? ALso I am looking for an RAF number of the period for the bonnet sides. I am assuming 3" lettering for this. Any help appreciated. Would these details would fit in with your WOT Jules? I only saw it once when Dom owned it and can't remember.

Simon