Where does the demand come from?

[ajmac]

This may seem like a silly question, but is based on a practical assesment!

I am considering the demand for WW2 armour; lets say that tracked WW2 armour was topped out at 20k for a Sherman. Even if that were the case the market must be limited firstly to the people intrested in the subject, then by the space available to store and maintain such a vehicle and by the practical aptitude to restore it. Finally there is the cost of fuelling these vehicles, both for transport to events and actual operation.

Thus my point is that even if these vehicles were optainable (in cost terms) the market must be incredibly limited.

Am I missing the fact that the market is international?

 

Conditions for restoring a WW2 Tank:

Own a Farm with workshop

Lots of time

Forklift truck

Mechanical Aptitude OR spare cash.

 

I'm working my self to death around the world to get the farm, but when I've done that I'll have blown all the cash

 

PS. When did armour become unobtanium? It wasn't in the mid 90's :confused:

[Snapper]

Good questions. I am no use - the brain went when Jack dropped a spanner on my head. I am fine, but the spanner walks with a limp. No prizes who he is.

 

 

 

MB

Edited December 30, 2008 by Snapper
stupidity

[Tony Pearson]

Know what you mean i have always wanted an M5 stuart but now they are way out of my price range. One cam up for sale yesterday £162,000 who can spend that kind of cash.

 

Even thought of selling my house and living in a caravan!!!

 

For prices like that there has to be lots of people with lots of cash, and then of course people see it as an investment, but is it at those kind of prices who can afford one.

[Tony B]

Unfortunatley armour seems to have got into the realms of 'Rich men's toys'. The BMW has no cred , the luxury yacht has got boring , I know let's buy a tank!! I went off the idea of armour when a certain 'Pop' star renowned for stupid glases was seen to own an Abbot. :shake:

 

The ones like me that have been playing for years, before a military vehicle became a 'Fashioon' acessory had the best of it. Look at Barbour and the DAX pattern? Used to be exclusive, now the Chav brand. Even seen them wearing Flat tweed caps!!!! When I worked proffesionally with horses, breeches and boots were my work kit, the standard question from some *** in the street, 'Oh wheres your 'orse?' usual answer 'Like your brains left at home in the feild'. Now the bloddy stuff is high fashion, and some of the ***** females wearing trousers cut like breeches, puts me off eating. :shake:

Please note: I have the greatest of respect for people like Mr Wheatcroft. They would do it anyway for the love of the vehicles and the respect for history.

[sirhc]

£162000 seems like a lot of money, but how much is a top of the line Range Rover, Ferrari or a Bentley? Enough people buy these cars to make it worthwhile making them, so there are people with that kind of money to spend out there. (Or at least there used to be untill recently!)

[snowtracdave]

Same with steam engines isn't it - realistically they are nowhere near that value but prices are anywhere into seven figures & still there are buyers around . Likewise luxury cars - had the car serviced just before Christmas & chatting to the chap at the dealers he was telling me that they are struggling to sell the lower end saloons but top of the range XJ's & XK's are walking out the door .

[Stormin]

had the car serviced just before Christmas & chatting to the chap at the dealers he was telling me that they are struggling to sell the lower end saloons but top of the range XJ's & XK's are walking out the door .

 

Those with lots of money will almost always have lots of money. The credit crunch won't affect them that don't need credit. It will affect the ordinary man more, with mortgage, car loan and credit cards etc.

 

Back on topic:- Certain armoured vehicles and particularly world war 2 ones are seen purely as an investment by some people, no interest in running and maintaning a vehicle happy for it to sit somewhere and accumulate value. And in these times of other investments looking decidely dodgy I can only see the clamour for armour getting worse.

 

Maybe it's following the same pattern as classic cars did a while back (these are now resurgent as well) and eventually the bottom will fall out of the market, when everyone decides there's more to be made on the stock market again.

 

I don't think tanks are seen as high fashion. I don't see pop stars or footballers driving them round Cheshire or even taking them to military shows. They'll just be layed up in storage somewhere for no-one to see. :-(

[Rick W]

But doesnt WW2 German armour command a higher price than the Sherman? Jagdpanther?

[Richard Farrant]

But doesnt WW2 German armour command a higher price than the Sherman? Jagdpanther?

 

There is an obvious answer to that question, Rick.

 

The number of surviving Shermans and derivatives and stocks of parts new and old, still around.

 

As for German WW2 armour, I have never heard of NOS parts for them and how many restorable Jagdpanthers, etc are to be found?

 

The owners and restorers of these vehicles command a lot of respect, the time, money and resources needed are not something that many people could commit to. And once done, it is understandable not to run them around at every opportunity.

[Rick W]

Agree with that Richard, you only have to look at the work that the SdKfz Foundation does to appreciate that, as well as others Like Kevin Wheatcroft et al do. So it would be fair to say that german WW2 armour is in a totally different league than allied.

[Richard Farrant]

So it would be fair to say that german WW2 armour is in a totally different league than allied.

 

Rarity is what it is all about, Rick.

Not just WW2 German kit though, I can think of a few Allied vehicles from the same period that would also fetch high prices.

[Adrian Barrell]

The demand for armoured vehicles, particularly WW2, has been increasing for years. Some of that is people, not necessarily collectors in the traditional sense, buying just to 'have it' and keep it locked away but that is a small part of it.

 

It was about the mid 90s I would say when they started getting beyond the reach of the man in the street. I'm very glad I got mine before then.

 

If you really want a particular vehicle, you have to do your research and keep your ear to the ground. Kevin Ross's M5 Stuart sold on Milweb about 2001 for £6000 and a friend of mine bought a good, running M5 Halftrack last year that was advertised in the MVT greensheet for £5000. There are still bargains to be had now and again.

[Jack]

It is interesting to watch how markets work. Pretty much always supply and demand. Like most markets, I think the internet has changed things. It sets fire to the imagination, tanks are no longer something you only see in museums - you just put it in google and off you go.

 

Perhaps the folks who have been in the hobby for many years are best placed to answer my thoughts as they knew it pre internet.

 

What ever the reason the future is going to be more fun with tanks being involved, as I see it, the owners are more than happy to bring them out to play as it were. That is good for all involved.

[Stefano]

It's true, tank prices have been getting steadily sillier for some time now (a hundred and sixty grand for a Stuart - do me a favour), and yes, it has alot to do with supply and demand. It must be said however that the ownership of a tank is generally more of a team effort, with the costs generally spread over more people (it is in our case anyway), and actual running costs aren't really an issue, considering the mileage (transportation is another matter, but it would be the same with alot of softskins). It's true that everything is incredibly heavy, but a Sherman, if complete, is alot less complicated to restore than you would think (the dreaded multibank excluded), because of it's simple and robust construction. My Morris CD/SW is proving to be alot more of a challenge.....

[Runflat]

My Morris CD/SW is proving to be alot more of a challenge.....

 

Much rather have the CD/SW - one of my favourite MVs. It just looks so 'right'... and far more practical (as much as any MV is) than a tracked vehicle.

[Markheliops]

I suppose the cost of a particular vehicle will depend on how much someone wants to pay for it.

 

I agree with Stefano in that a hundred and sixty grand for a Stuart is a ridiculous amount of money to pay. Then again, if you have that sort of money to play with you are going to pay the going rate if you really want one.

 

German Armour is very rare and much sought after - but a million quid plus - even if I had that sort of money spare I wouldn't pay that.

 

I take my hat off to people who buy a Sherman or similar which requires time and money to restore but I'm not that bothered by the collectors who pay silly amounts of money to "have one." By the same token, I take my hat off to anyone who buys anything which requires restoration, regardless if it's a motorbike, boat, truck or tank.

 

All in all, I would state the obvious in that personal circumstances and budget restrict most of us to whatever vehicles we restore and own.

 

It is a well known fact there are people in this hobby of ours who buy well restored vehicles, park them in some god-forsaken place and allow them to rust to decay. It’s quite sad to see and I can’t imagine why people do it apart from just wanting to own a particular type of vehicle or possess a large collection of rare machinery.

 

I can’t understand it - but everyone has their reasons.

 

Markheliops

[Adrian Barrell]

Markheliops, couldn't have put it better myself!