cosrec Posted September 6, 2010 Share Posted September 6, 2010 maybe its time for a couple of tips for the landrover owners and off roaders. the best general way of increasing holding power on most vehicles under most conditions are scotch blocks. these are dead easy to fab up. but if you are cheecky enough you can cadge them of continental truck drivers on services they all carry them in the form of wheel chocks on trailors and units. the best i have found are those fitted to iveco units. if you have a front mounted winch equiped 4X4 throw one under each front wheel the wrong way up eg curved side down and winch with hand brake of until almost going over the top of it then fasten a ratchet strap to the handle pass it in front of bumper over the top across the chassis up over the bumper and down to handle on opposite scotch ratchet up until tight apply handbrake. you will effectivley nearly double your holding power. Ps if you bumper bends i dont want to know but i can say i have done it my self quite a few times with no problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewrance Posted September 7, 2010 Share Posted September 7, 2010 Hi Folks I've over 30 years of experience using Scammells and Land Rovers for recovery and towing. Always assume the others are idiots and make sure that you are in command and the casualty know it. If in doubt, leave them there until they are ready to do it your way. Remember, we are playing with our toys and our hobby. If they want a professional recovery, let them pay the bill! Please remember, if the site is open to the public, the Road Traffic Act applies and this includes towing! Time and patience are the best 2 tools in the recovery handbook. REME have issued some excellent guides on recovery techniques and these can normally be sourced throught the ex-military manual sellers. The WW2 era training films on Recovery are a very good start for the ehavier stuff and the principles work equally well for smaller equipment. I trust this helps. Kind regards Brian Carter AKA Dewrance, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robin craig Posted September 7, 2010 Share Posted September 7, 2010 I managed to snap a pic of the cover aide memoire used by the Canadian Forces as it thought it might be of use to some people. Sorry its on its side. R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritineye Posted September 7, 2010 Share Posted September 7, 2010 Last show we attended a steam ploughing engine was attempting to drag a dead artic with locked trailer brakes up a slope as a demo, something went wrong and the winch rope came flying off towards the the engine, the driver was a bit shaken I think, and seemed slow to respond, the shackle ended up jammed in the fairlead. Should have been filming that one, but it all looked a bit boring till then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MVRT Del Posted September 7, 2010 Share Posted September 7, 2010 The Problem was due to the person connecting winch rope to the shock of the trailer:nono: :nono:and not the main chassis, Luckily no won hurt could have been a lot worse. the damage to the engine was minimal winch guide bent cable bent. :shocked::sweat: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted September 9, 2010 Share Posted September 9, 2010 Oh dear looks like them harmless winch rope gremins have struck again. Good job they only bend fairlead rollers and leave people alone. The aid posted by robin craig is a good one. The recheck rigging one would have saved this mishap Remember rigging includes the bit you hang to not just your own kit [ATTACH=CONFIG]34166[/ATTACH] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted September 9, 2010 Share Posted September 9, 2010 Read an old book on recovery at college and there was a very good flow chart at the front of it, 1st box read "engage brain before mouth or other equipment". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted September 9, 2010 Share Posted September 9, 2010 Ok shockers are not the best of places to hang to on trailers so where do you hang your kit. If you are interested enough have a look round one next time you get chance there are supisingly few places. You may find welded on to the chassis underneath the rails around the fifth wheel and at the back end some hefty d shaped rings maybe painted yellow and may have a transfer next to them with a ships anchor on them. Usually they are painted yellow and are fantastic for what they are designed to do take a direct pull straight down when begin lashed on board ferries. They are capable of holding 4 tons in this job. they will not stand being pull sideways as oftence they are only welded to 5mm plate. What else is there 5th wheel pin ideal its designed for the job but theres a unit fastened to it so use the unit. sides have crash guards there only cosmetic so forget them back end you have tail lifts or under run bars niether of them are any good. Whats left axles. With very few exceptions on any modern civillian and a lot of milatry vehicles regardless of size i would ever do a heavy pull on the axle. i certainly will not use the manfacturers supplyed towing eyes for any serious work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted September 9, 2010 Share Posted September 9, 2010 Oh dear looks like them harmless winch rope gremins have struck again. Good job they only bend fairlead rollers and leave people alone. The aid posted by robin craig is a good one. The recheck rigging one would have saved this mishap Remember rigging includes the bit you hang to not just your own kit :rofl::rofl::rotfl::rofl: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted September 16, 2010 Share Posted September 16, 2010 A bit more on why I wont use standard towing eyes for heavy pulls. Originally the majority of towing eyes were the screw in type. These were actually lifting eyes the same fitted to electric motors machinery etc if you look them up they have a SWL 2 tons direct pull they could stand virtually no side loading. Next came the centrally mounted xmember type if fitted with correct pin these could stand 5 ton non standard pin smaller than original fitted and they pulled the top flange out around about 3 ton . Next came the type fitted Bedford TK cargos these were good for about 3 ton per side straight pull. Ok for a moderate pull if used in tandem Modern day commercials are fitted with quick connect towing eyes either side front on chassis ends these are good for about 4.5 tons. Only one towing eye is supplied per vehicle. These towing eyes are very substantial so why such a low rating. Because there is a great danger of lozenging the chassis above these ratings. Believe me I have seen it done. Also if subjected to side loadings they can easily bend the chassis ends. With out exception and it usually says in vehicle handbook definitely no lift forces are to be applied to them. Which to me leaves only manufacturer supplied trailer attachments eg drawbar units. These will stand as much as the chassis can so are ok to use but have the problem of being difficult to fasten to. As for cars they have flimsy pressed steel towing eyes or more modern ones have screw in eyes. Personally I wont use these to winch a vehicle on to a slide bed never mind out of mud or up an embankment. Which is why I said fasten to axles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulob1 Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 glad you tidied that up because your previous post was ambiguous, I could not understand if you were saying use the axles or not, to me it seems the only place to use on a really stuck truck... Now what do you do with a stalwart with no axles...do you use the lifting eyes on the front they are designed to carry the truck but I have no idea of their total loading, they look strong but so do many items until they fail...anyone know the loading on these... the awdc had a very scary moment recently when a plonker had fitted a towing hitch to the rear door of his landy, yes I kid you not, and when stuck and was hauled out, the recovery guy just assumed it was good, didn't recheck the rigging, and when it came flying it nearly took his head off, it was a very very dangerous incident....they now check everyones towing and recovery hitches for either chassis connections or they are told that recovery must only be by axles... it is a dodgy business and towing hitches are not good with kerrs ropes either in my experience... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted September 20, 2010 Author Share Posted September 20, 2010 AWDC have had several moments of excitment with tow points over the years. I had a near miss years ago marshalling when the heads bolts holding the tow hitch parted company. The shaft on one bolted had rusted through, the other then failed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosrec Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 (edited) When fastening to axles you can use chains short wire slings or polyester endless slings. You can hang over the springs at the back of the hangers. Problem with more modern trucks is body panels bumpers hang lower so can get damaged. So wrap around the axle its self. This brings about its own problems at the front you usually have the steering rod behind the axle watch you dont wrap around this I have on more than one ocassion at the rear the brake accuation shaft can easily get wrapped around. This brings me on to the best bit of recovery kit for years the polyester endless slings. these are supple enough to wrap around an axle missing the above items which can be impossible with chains or wire slings. These slings are supplied colour coded eg the red sleeved ones are rated at 5 tons. If you look at them they will have a number of lines printed or stitched along the length of the sleeve this will be either 5 or 7 this is the factor of saftey the slings are designed with for lifting purposes. When using around axle you are actually using them in basket form hence you have doubled there rating. Use in pairs one each side of axle and bring together to form bridal and you have the ideal set up for heavy winching with the knowledge that its going to take around 140tons before they start smacking you in the mouth. Now thats a lot more then anybodys going to be able to apply and the axle would probably come of first anyway. They have another great advantage is they are easy to scramble up and down embankments dykes without giving you a hernia. they fold up and you can tuck them behind a seat plus you can even use them for what they were designed for Lifting within SWL of course. What else is good about them if you wrap them around a steel Brake pipe with out noticing they are soft enough to get away with out crushing it. They fit in to the nato hitches fitted on MOD vehicles either singley for say tow starting or doubled to hang to for winching A new pair of 5 ton 3 metre long ones costs about £40 cheaper and a dam sight handier than equivalent chains or wire slings. In use they stretch noticably. On bogged vehicles if you pull hard then leave for awhile you oftence can return and give another pull because they retain pressure as suction eases unlike chains. Ps dont try using as KERRS they are no good for snatching steady sustained pressure is what is needed Edited September 20, 2010 by cosrec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoltan Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Thanks Cosrec, this thread just gets better and better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulob1 Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 yes use those endless strops a lot, they are superb and because they are covered in a nice material they don't get so badly affected by the dirt...I have proper axle chains for my M62 wrecker... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amphibi boy Posted September 26, 2010 Share Posted September 26, 2010 using the axles is not a good idea! once down on the slab, some know it all serge (names withheld to protect the innocent) got the landie bogged in, so he promptly started to recover it from the axles, he was told that's not a good idea, by me and some others, (but as i was only a lance jack at the time,and the others private's) we were told to shut up, "im a sergent" so he continued, the rover bogged in and then the funny noises started to be heard until, "bang" one bent and damaged axle! it gave way on one side and pulled it off! :blush: lesson learnt, and one red faced sergent with a slightly lighter wallet! strong chassis fixings are the only point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Posted September 26, 2010 Share Posted September 26, 2010 Agreed - imagine dragging a bogged FH70 by the axles :nut: Snap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted September 26, 2010 Share Posted September 26, 2010 (edited) On occasions, using axles is the best idea, on other occasions using towing eyes/ towing points is the best option. There is no prescriptive answer as to how to recover or tow, each incident has to be weighed up, then and there bearing in mind all the relevant facts. Sometimes (very often) there is no right way, and you have to choose the least bad idea....and hope it works out. Of course you can balance a load between axle AND towing point by putting a short strap from the axle, through a snatch block, and back to the towing eye. If you then pull on the snatch block, it will run on the short strop, until it centralises then the pull is genuinely split equally between two loading points. This lessens the chance of either point failing.... Equally if pulling out a Landy with eyes, Take a strop from one eye, through a block, then back to the other eye. Pull from the block. Load is reasonably equally split between the two eyes even if the landy gets out of line with the towrope/ winch rope, as the snatch block adjusts its own position on the strop. Edited September 26, 2010 by antarmike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrtcrowther Posted September 26, 2010 Share Posted September 26, 2010 My mate tells me they are now pulling the front axles off those huge recovery trucks that replaced the Fodens ( I forget what they are called...You konw the new ones they've been given). can't remember if they are ripping them off or leaving them behind in the sand:rofl: His two lads have to put up with them and reckon they are to big, heavy, coverd in electric safety and the front axles arn't very well fastened on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Rat Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 If you read what Cosrec has written (as he does this for a living) you will see that he explains that different situations/vehicle types etc require different winching methods, strops, shackles etc. This may mean using towing eyes, lashing points, axles, etc This is the whole point of the thread - there is no 'one hat fits all' method to recovery. If this was the case then most wreckers would just turn up with a winch and 6ft of logging chain ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 (edited) Cosrec isn't the only one on here doing recovery for a living but he talks a lot of sense. However what works in the commercial sector doesn't necessary work with MV's. There are quite a few MV's that will not sustain heavy recovery from the axle's and this should be a last resort. Most MV's will be open enough to get a pull around the chassis legs, again its mainly the newer commercial trucks that you cannot get a pull around the chassis. The chassis or axles may not be up to the pull and you have got to do a bit of digging first. As Mike says each incident has to be weighed up, and if you are not competent to do that then you shouldn't be attempting the recovery in the first place. If its your truck you are recovering and there is no one else around its your choice. If the truck belongs to someone else and/or other people are around and you haven't done that type of recovery before then leave it. Sorry to be hard but it doesn't take long to rip an axle or twist a chassis rail on someone's pride and joy and probably even quicker to injure someone. Edited September 27, 2010 by Grumpy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrtcrowther Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 Never underestimate the power of a spade!!!:thumbsup: half an hour with a spade often helps in a big way. moving earth and clearing chassis crossmembers is always my first point of attack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recymech66 Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 My mate tells me they are now pulling the front axles off those huge recovery trucks that replaced the Fodens ( I forget what they are called...You konw the new ones they've been given). can't remember if they are ripping them off or leaving them behind in the sand:rofl: His two lads have to put up with them and reckon they are to big, heavy, coverd in electric safety and the front axles arn't very well fastened on. Sorry mate, have to disagree with all that, I use the new MAN SVR everyday at work and have just come back from Canada (BATUS). They are an awesome recovery wagon, yes they have had a few niggles with the electronics but a competent VM/Tech usually sorts out those niggles. Don't forget any new bit of equipment has niggles once put into the hands of the user however that's the best trails you can do, give them to the squaddies to break then they get modded and you end up with decent equipment. As for pulling axles off them, no way. Maybe they have had one incident but I would hazard a guess that these blokes didn't know what they were doing. The wagon is awesome cross country, would be even better with a more aggressive tyre. We've had no real bad feedback from Afghan, I've more than a passing interest, I'm back out there early next year. Awesome truck, don't believe everything you hear.:cool2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Rat Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 Never underestimate the power of a spade!!!:thumbsup: half an hour with a spade often helps in a big way. moving earth and clearing chassis crossmembers is always my first point of attack. Very true. We recovered a 360 digger on bog tracks that had slipped and sunk. Two bucket's of material moved from the front made the difference from it being pulled out and the truck getting pulled towards it. A wheel/track that can move up a slope will make recovery much easier than a wheel/track that is hard against a solid wall of earth/mud. Like Grumpy has said each job is different from the last. Most MV's have in all fairness got good recovery points but modern commercials don't have. This is why Cosrec has said that a variety of kit and methods needs to be employed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbrtcrowther Posted September 27, 2010 Share Posted September 27, 2010 sometimes even a spade can't help you though. found this vid on you tube a while ago. can't imagine the suction involved but he let it sit with some weight on for a while:wow:Something went wrong...also shows our friends the round sling in use:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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