BRDM Driver Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 I have an odd fault which I initially thought was a leaky oil seal on the gearbox input shaft. When doing slow maneuvers, oil smoke will come out of the engine decks. One the move, no smoke. I am fairly sure that the oil leak was at the gearbox and is seeping onto the clutch housing, which then burns off when it slips and heats up. Last time I had the decks up, there was a small amount of oil under the clutch. (tiny pactch). I checked it again today and found loads of oil in the bottom of the hull under the clutch/gearbox. (Like 2 pints :wow:). It's black oil (actually slightly grey colour when collected up in a jar), oddly when I checked the gearbox oil level, it doesn't appear to be down and the oil looks clean. So I wondered if it was engine oil. I checked the engine oil level and it looks a bit too full. The oil is a dark colour. There has also been oil getting thrown about off the cooling fan inside the engine bay... So if the engine has too much oil in, could it get ejected at the front of the engine somewhere and get all over the fan and work its way onto the clutch? With oil getting spun off all over the place it's hard to know where to start looking for the leak! So where would oil be ejected if you overfilled the engine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfire Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 I don't know about the scorpion, but on my Saracen, there is something that looks like a bolt with 2 holes on it on the outside, front left of the engine bay, which is the breather/overflow for the oil system. I overfilled mine once and it blew crap out of there, all over the place. For environmental reasons, the scorpion may do that internally, I don't know. In your case, I would clean out the hull (take off an access plate, jack up the back, lots of degreaser, followed by hosing it out) and then carefully monitor fluid levels to work out what is leaking. Cheers, Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 I have an odd fault which I initially thought was a leaky oil seal on the gearbox input shaft. When doing slow maneuvers, oil smoke will come out of the engine decks. One the move, no smoke. I am fairly sure that the oil leak was at the gearbox and is seeping onto the clutch housing, which then burns off when it slips and heats up. Last time I had the decks up, there was a small amount of oil under the clutch. (tiny pactch). I checked it again today and found loads of oil in the bottom of the hull under the clutch/gearbox. (Like 2 pints :wow:). It's black oil (actually slightly grey colour when collected up in a jar), oddly when I checked the gearbox oil level, it doesn't appear to be down and the oil looks clean. So I wondered if it was engine oil. I checked the engine oil level and it looks a bit too full. The oil is a dark colour. There has also been oil getting thrown about off the cooling fan inside the engine bay... So if the engine has too much oil in, could it get ejected at the front of the engine somewhere and get all over the fan and work its way onto the clutch? With oil getting spun off all over the place it's hard to know where to start looking for the leak! So where would oil be ejected if you overfilled the engine? The rear main oil seal is at the drive end of engine and if sump level is too high then it could be that the seal cannot hold some of the oil back, hence the leak . Simple answer drain down to correct level, clean up and retest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted August 16, 2015 Share Posted August 16, 2015 I don't know about the scorpion, but on my Saracen, there is something that looks like a bolt with 2 holes on it on the outside, front left of the engine bay, which is the breather/overflow for the oil system. I overfilled mine once and it blew crap out of there, all over the place. For environmental reasons, the scorpion may do that internally, I don't know. In your case, I would clean out the hull (take off an access plate, jack up the back, lots of degreaser, followed by hosing it out) and then carefully monitor fluid levels to work out what is leaking. Cheers, Terry Terry, Saracen is a dry sump system and people make the mistake of topping up the tank level without running the engine to scavenge the oil in the sump back to tank, hence the overflowing tank. CVR(T) is a normal wet sump as a car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfire Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Terry,Saracen is a dry sump system and people make the mistake of topping up the tank level without running the engine to scavenge the oil in the sump back to tank, hence the overflowing tank. CVR(T) is a normal wet sump as a car. Yes, that's the mistake I made, and not mixing up the radiator filler and oil cap :embarrassed: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon_M Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 I'm seeing key words like; oil, level, slightly grey and I'm thinking that the first thing I'd check would be the water level to make sure the nice clean oil in the sump isn't sitting on a gallon of coolant that has leaked in. I don't know the exact configuration or likelihood but I'd certainly be checking coolant level / usage too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Could be a loose hose to/from the heat exchanger on the fan bulkhead, maybe to/from the gearbox oil filter. Regarding colour and cleanliness, oil sloshing around on the floor will pick up dust and CVRTs are always full of water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryb Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 it's almost certainly the oil seal behind the clutch. Black because it had run through the friction material dust in the clutch drum. It would burn during clutch take up, but once engaged there would be no smoke as both driven and driver parts of the clutch are rotating at the same speed. Its a common failure along with the output seals leaking onto the steering discs (check these as they can leak even when not in use) Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRDM Driver Posted August 17, 2015 Author Share Posted August 17, 2015 Well I have had a good poke around with the top armor off (it's a lot easier to drive like that!). The oil has collected under the gearbox and under the front (back) of the engine, so pretty sure that oil that has come out of the gearbox input shaft has been spun off the clutch and then sucked through to the engine bay by the fan. The cooling fan and belts are all oily. It appears that the oil only leaks in quantity when the gearbox is hot and when it's running at speed (I've done a few road runs lately). It could be that there are two leaks of course (rear of engine and gearbox), but in the meantime, I'll going to get the gearbox out and change the shaft seals. So has anyone done a 'how to' guide for getting the gearbox out and changing seals? Don't suppose there's an EMER for it? (I'll start searching here, of course!) Any tips, pointers, appreciated. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 I have pulled the entire clutch assembly and drum out without removing the gearbox from the vehicle, so unless you really want to remove it (ie for cleaning/painting) it is possible to access the seal in situe. I do have a vague recollection of having changed the same seal on one of our vehicles, but I've done enough work on several CVRTs over the years to have forgotten the precise details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRDM Driver Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 I have pulled the entire clutch assembly and drum out without removing the gearbox from the vehicle, so unless you really want to remove it (ie for cleaning/painting) it is possible to access the seal in situe. I do have a vague recollection of having changed the same seal on one of our vehicles, but I've done enough work on several CVRTs over the years to have forgotten the precise details. That's interesting! I hadn't considered doing that! Certainly worth a go initially and if the leak is elsewhere I'll get the box out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 You'll need to pop the front bulkhead out, probably drivers one as well so by that point you're not far off having the gearbox out. I think our record was one year at War & Peace we had a gearbox out (from scratch) in 45 minutes. I have no idea why we were removing it at that point, but I've changed 'boxes on at least 2 occasions at that show! Vince Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRDM Driver Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 You'll need to pop the front bulkhead out, probably drivers one as well so by that point you're not far off having the gearbox out. I think our record was one year at War & Peace we had a gearbox out (from scratch) in 45 minutes. I have no idea why we were removing it at that point, but I've changed 'boxes on at least 2 occasions at that show! Vince Hmmm 45 mins! I'm guessing that was not single handed! (team of 6 perhaps?) Getting that front bulkhead out is a right PITA, especially with all the cables that run through the rear 't' section of it... Today I got nearly everything disconnected with just the poxy starter cable to go. (need to get the side bulkhead out just to undo the other end of that cable as the power distribution box end connector doesn't fit through the hole in the bulkhead :mad:...) I'm thinking it will be 10 hours to get to the gearbox seal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grasshopper Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 2 of us with a Ward LaFrance on hand- I think we'd had that (and probably other) gearboxes in and out of that particular vehicle several times by then so were quite well practiced at it! Plus I think that at that time, the decks and bulkheads did not contain the full and correct quota of bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRDM Driver Posted August 20, 2015 Author Share Posted August 20, 2015 Well I nearly got the front bulkhead out yesterday, after taking out the seat and side bulkhead to undo the starter cable so I could thread it through the hole in the front bulkhead.... But some numpty had put the front bulkhead back previously with a bolt in the wrong place! The bulkhead is sandwiched between a flange welded to the hull and a welded plate pedal box. You can see all three layers here with the end of a bolt sticking out: Easy, just unbolt it, but on the other side (in the drivers compartment): What! No bolt head! I assumed it had seared off, but no: It's under the flange! So the bulkhead was bolted to the pedal box with one bolt and then both were put in the hull and the rest of bolts put in, squashing this one! I can get a spanner on it, but the pedal box and hull flange are rigid so there's nowhere for the bolt to unscrew to...:mad: I might be able to get a cut off disk in there and then use a screw extractor to get the remains out, maybe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfire Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 It looks to me like that bolt is just sitting there, and that the plates it's going through aren't threaded. You should just be able to remove the bulkhead. Cheers, Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRDM Driver Posted August 20, 2015 Author Share Posted August 20, 2015 Got the bulkhead out at last! That bolt was threaded into the ali box that goes around the pedals. Once I lifted the bulkhead a couple of inches, i managed to prise the plates apart enough to get the bolt unscrewed and out. clutch next! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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