question Start pilote

[johnwardle]

Does anyone know where I can buy some START PILOTE fluid for my Leyland Daf 4 Tonner? this is used for cold starting. It is or was made by Holt and I have tried motor factors in the West Wilts area but to no avail. Where can I get some?

[protruck]

Hi John.

 

Is this the start pilot that is in the small airasol tins with the small plastic bottle resovoir on the front of the vehicle.

iF so, a leyland part no would be good, and i can look at my suppliers list. i'm the same i've not bought this for years.

 

rdgs

 

clive

[Amphibi boy]

Be careful when you use this, as the engine will get addicted to it if you use it too much.

We used to have an old ford cargo v8 for shunting trailers, it had dodgy head gasket, fine in summer, but it needed a whiff of start pilot in the cold, but it got so used to it that once winter was over, it would'nt start without it :nut:

 

Also if you just want the tin of spray, then you can also use brake cleaner, it is also excellent for starting weak/cold engines!

 

Im sure you could get some at your local parts store. Im not sure about a bigger quantity for filling your reservoir on the daf!

 

Shaun

[Tony B]

:cool2:Hey Shaun! You a bus enginer by any chance? Ether start use on these vejicles is strictly forbiden!!!! :cool2::cool2:

[Amphibi boy]

Hey tony,

No not a bus engineer,

so why is that forbidden then? (me being a little stupid perhaps)

 

Shaun

[16svt]

Ether is awful stuff, it is only meant to be used in severe cold conditions (minus 30-40).

If a diesel engine will not start in the cold we have been having here, there is something wrong with it. Could be lack of compression, poor cranking, poor injection or poor pre heaters/cold start devise not working. The problem with ether/easy-start is that it is very volatile and causes very high compression in the cylinders, this leads to broken rings and increased starting problems.

If your diesel engine wont start in the cold, figure out why and fix it. This stuff will only make your problems worse.

Thats why people say its addictive to engines

[Richard Farrant]

Ether is awful stuff, it is only meant to be used in severe cold conditions (minus 30-40).

If a diesel engine will not start in the cold we have been having here, there is something wrong with it. Could be lack of compression, poor cranking, poor injection or poor pre heaters/cold start devise not working. The problem with ether/easy-start is that it is very volatile and causes very high compression in the cylinders, this leads to broken rings and increased starting problems.

If your diesel engine wont start in the cold, figure out why and fix it. This stuff will only make your problems worse.

Thats why people say its addictive to engines

 

I agree here. But must say that an engine is not a living being as such, they don't get addicted to ether, it gets used because there is a problem, and if the problem is not rectified, then it gets worse, hence using ether more and more.

 

Not absolutley sure, but would be surprised if the Leyland DAF 4 tonner did not have a heater plug, they work well usually, and the other thing to make sure is that both batteries are good. It only takes one of the pair to be below par, to give you slow cranking, after all a diesel relies on speed of cranking to create the heat in the combustion.

 

I recently rebuilt a 23C diesel in a Massey 35 tractor, now, 40+ year ago, people said they were addicted to ether and it was the only way to start them. Well this one only wanted a bit of heat and it was away, no problems, not bad for a 54 year old engine.

Edited December 25, 2010 by Richard Farrant

[Degsy]

Richard, we've still got two of the old 35's on the farm, both now want rebuilding if we ever get the time but they used to start ok because my brother in law used to drill the heads on this type to take 4 heater plugs, completely cured the starting problem.

[Richard Farrant]

Richard, we've still got two of the old 35's on the farm, both now want rebuilding if we ever get the time but they used to start ok because my brother in law used to drill the heads on this type to take 4 heater plugs, completely cured the starting problem.

 

 

Hi Degsy,

 

I have heard of that mod, apparantly it was standard fitment in a 23C fitted to a certain van (Standard Atlas?). This one had the normal Thermostart and it worked well. Engine rebuild kits are very reasonable too.

[Degsy]

Hi Degsy,

 

I have heard of that mod, apparantly it was standard fitment in a 23C fitted to a certain van (Standard Atlas?). This one had the normal Thermostart and it worked well. Engine rebuild kits are very reasonable too.

 

Yes they are cheap enough and its amazing that they are still available.

[rbrtcrowther]

We have a big old Cummins V8 in our Coles crane at work. It was fitted with a start pilot from new by Cummins. the engine will start ok in the summer months but anything from 10 degrees c or less its a real pain in the ass. We even had it rebuilt when it cracked a liner and the mechanic who sorted it out put explaned it all......The cummins fitted in our crane is rather over engineered and is detuned to produce about 160 - 200 hp. this is done by adjusting the torque setting on the injector pushrod. when the engine is detuned like this there is not enough fuel injected to start a cold engine thus an ether injection kit was fitted. He recons that he can get between 400-600 hp from this engine and perfect cold starting. He then proceeded to wind up the fueling and said give it a go tomorrow. It fired up perfectly and the torque converter overheated in about 10mins in the short but rather to quick run back to his workshop. The main reason it went back was because we could not see for black smoke. the fuelling was all wrong for the power, speeds and loads.

The reason engines get adicted to either is because too much is normally injected into the engine where it detonates and damages the rings or lifts heads or washes the ring of carbon deposit away at the top of the cylinder which has built up over the years and helps to seal the compression. It when people used to de-carbonize a top end you were never to clean the top of the cylinder for this reason. It could lead to oil burning loss of compression ect. The ring of carbon was only removed in a major rebuild. There must be some time served engineers who remember being told this? I learnt it from my old man:D

Edited December 26, 2010 by rbrtcrowther

[Richard Farrant]

It when people used to de-carbonize a top end you were never to clean the top of the cylinder for this reason. It could lead to ol burning loss of compression ect. The ring of carbon was only removed in a major rebuild. There must be some time served engineers who remember being told this? I learnt it from my old man:D

 

Hi Robert,

 

That is absolutely correct !

 

I must just add, that at one time a lot of Army equipment was fitted with a Start Pilot device which accepted a small metal cartridge, once loaded, the plunger was pushed down this punctured it and pumped the ether into the manifold. All the Bedford MK's had it on the dashboard, never, ever had to use it. But the one that really brought it home as to how dangerous it was to an engine, was the little Petter diesels used on pumps and generators, cannot remember whether they were AA1 model, anyway, came across one in for repair with no compression. It had an empty cartridge in the pump, and found that it had stretched the cylinder barrel studs. Bet it kicked on the starting handle too !

[LoggyDriver]

My MJ has the good old fuel cold start device. But I've never had to use it, as the engine starts at the mear hint of being turned over. I might go out today and fire her up. She has sat outside in for a month in these minus temps.

 

Richard,

 

On a seperate note, did you ever have Bedford 330 engines with a pushrod problem on number 3 cylinder? A fitter at work mentioned this, but I've never heard of it?

[Richard Farrant]

Richard,

 

On a seperate note, did you ever have Bedford 330 engines with a pushrod problem on number 3 cylinder? A fitter at work mentioned this, but I've never heard of it?

 

Hi,

 

I cannot think of ever having that problem on a Bedford. Cannot think what it could be either as it is all so simple inside. Biggest problem was oil leaks. :-)

 

Did the fitter elaborate on the problem?

[Stone]

The reason engines get adicted to either is because too much is normally injected into the engine where it detonates and damages the rings or lifts heads or washes the ring of carbon deposit away at the top of the cylinder which has built up over the years and helps to seal the compression. It when people used to de-carbonize a top end you were never to clean the top of the cylinder for this reason. It could lead to oil burning loss of compression ect. The ring of carbon was only removed in a major rebuild. There must be some time served engineers who remember being told this? I learnt it from my old man:D

There's lots of dire warnings about cold-starting in the RB44 manual! Worth pointing out that the instruction is to only pump in ether while cranking. I suspect a few over-enthusiastic strokes of the pump before starting would be enough to cause detonation and the problems above! A little goes a long way.

 

That said, we only ever have starting problems with dodgy batteries. It got down to -12 here and no problems so far...

 

Stone

[LoggyDriver]

Hi,

 

I cannot think of ever having that problem on a Bedford. Cannot think what it could be either as it is all so simple inside. Biggest problem was oil leaks. :-)

 

Did the fitter elaborate on the problem?

 

 

 

 

That's what I thought. I told him I've never heard of the problem he was talking about. I will ask him as I've forgotten. :-D

[johnwardle]

The Cummins engine fitted to Leyland Daf 4 tonners do not have Heater plugs fitted. The reason I was asking where I can get Start Pilote from is that my truck is now not starting! It is a 1995 model that has only done 34000 kms it spent all its sevice life as a UBRE with a REME T.A. unit. It started and ran fine until we had this cold spell, now it turns over fine but will not catch. Yes it has got plenty of fuel in!

[Richard Farrant]

The Cummins engine fitted to Leyland Daf 4 tonners do not have Heater plugs fitted. The reason I was asking where I can get Start Pilote from is that my truck is now not starting! It is a 1995 model that has only done 34000 kms it spent all its sevice life as a UBRE with a REME T.A. unit. It started and ran fine until we had this cold spell, now it turns over fine but will not catch. Yes it has got plenty of fuel in!

 

John,

 

Is there any chance the fuel has waxed? If you have not used it much, the fuel may be from before the winter additives were added. It has been cold enough to wax, in places. Try spraying a bit of Start Pilot / Easy Start / Start Ya Bastard in the intake as you spin it over, if it catches and runs, then not waxed, but it will eliminate that possibility.

[Amphibi boy]

It wont stop the starting, but check your filler cap, they are prone for blocking of the vent, and causing vacuum in the tank, and the engine will runn poorly, usually on overrun or when you slow down for a junction etc.

 

Also check your fuel return pipes, the plastic ones can crack and youll get leaks and problems

 

But as said before, squirt some start pilot, or brake cleaner in the intake see if she fires up then.

 

Good luck, let us know how you get on.

 

 

Shaun

[johnwardle]

Thanks for all the advice & tips, I have now got it running. I may have waxed up or it may have simply run out of fuel the last time I stopped it.

After changing the fuel filter and replacing the seals on the sedimenter I bled the system once again and tried to start up , after 30 seconds turning over, nothing, then I rembered that there has to be diesel in the injector pipes before it will start, so I loosenened the pipes at the injectors & turned the starter, after a few seconds diesel sprayed everywhere, tightened them up again and she roared into life, and now starts every time straight away!!! My excuse is that I left Arborfield in 1975 and have not worked as a mechanic since.

[LoggyDriver]

Glad you got it working again mate. Obviously not a self bleed pump then.

[johnwardle]

Hello LoggyDriver, It is allegedly a self bleeding system, but if there is air in the injector pipes the air in the pipes will compress and not lift the needles in the injectors.