Hurricane vs Spitfire

[montie]

This article claims that if it wasn't for the Hurricane, the Battle of Britain would have been lost!

Contrary to popular belief, it was the Hurricane, not the Spitfire that saved Britain during the dark days of 1940. The turn-around time (re-arm, refuel etc.) for the Spitfire was 26 minutes. That of the Hurricane, only 9 minutes from down to up again. During the Battle of Britain the time spent on the ground was crucial and as one fitter/mechanic of No. 145 Squadron quipped: "If we had nothing but Spits we would have lost the fight in 1940." The Spitfire was an all metal fighter, slightly faster, had a faster rate of climb and had a higher ceiling, while the Hurricane had a fabric covered fuselage, was quicker to repair and withstood more punishment. With the for and against of both fighters they came out about even. The majority of German planes shot down during the four month period were destroyed by Hurricanes. For much of the Battle of Britain, the Spitfires went after the German BF 109s at the higher altitudes, while the Hurricanes attacked the bomber formations flying at lower altitudes. This cost the enemy a total of 551 pilots killed or taken prisoner. During the war a total of 14,231 Hurricanes and 20,334 Spitfires were produced. The famous Rolls-Royce 'Merlin' engine evolved through 88 separate marks and was fitted in around 70,000 Allied aircraft, including the famous Lancaster bomber, during the six years of war. In the hectic battles in the sky over southern England many pilots returned to base utterly exhausted and routinely fell asleep as they taxied their plane to a stop. Ground crews often had to help the sleeping pilot from the cockpit after he returned from combat.

 

 

http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/index.html

[trustmeimamechanic]

an ongoing argument..... however if we had the same number of just spits as the total number of spits and hurricanes then I'm pretty sure we would still have won the B o B and maybe a little sooner, the hurricane was / is no doubt a very fine gun platform and was easy to repair and is better on the ground due to its wide track.... that said the spit is faster both in the climb to altitude and in level flight (even Mks of the same age ), the hurricane was soon only sutiable for ground attack roles which it was very good at with a its six cannons ( 8 ? )and could never have fought an FW190 with more than the smallest chance of a kill , the hurricane airframe was at its peak of development in 1941 .... the spit was only just getting started.... at the end of its life the spit had over twice the HP that the Mk1 had and its all up weight was like a Mk1 taking off with a bus load of passengers sitting on the wings... not to mention sub-sonic in a dive :cool2:

I have never spoken to a hurricane pilot who then flew spits that would have swapped back... and don't forget the spit struck such fear into german pilots some would insist they were shot down by spits when none were in the area and a hurricane had been the victor...that fear factor contributed to more than a few victory's.

[mike65]

Statistically it is probably correct.

The Hurricane shot down more aircraft, but then there were more Hurricanes.

The Hurricane was easier to build and repair on the front line, due its construction.

The Hurricane was also a better gun platform, for shooting bombers down.

The Spitfire was more manouevrable.

Of course the Spitfire was also a very attractive aircraft.

I also believe the Germans lost alot of 109s due to them running out of fuel.

 

But lets face it it was not just the aircraft, it was those who flew and kept them flying.

 

Mike

[trustmeimamechanic]

The first posters clip contains one indisputable truth.... the RR Merlin and also probably the Griffion were the most important aircraft / boat / tank engines of WW2... the Merlin and the engines its design, all be it in modified form in boats and tanks brought about , did very much win the war . :-D

[zoltan]

The first posters clip contains one indisputable truth.... the RR Merlin and also probably the Griffion were the most important aircraft / boat / tank engines of WW2... the Merlin and the engines its design, all be it in modified form in boats and tanks brought about , did very much win the war . :-D

 

RR know a thing or two about making superb aero engines which is why it is slightly galling that their name is being hauled through the mud somewhat with the present A380 problems

[paulob1]

it was the hurricane and the spitfire that helped to win the BOB...it was the pilots the big wing the radar, the British spirit, ( now lost to process and procedure) it was a host of things, no one product or person won us the BOB...it was all the factors put together...that made it possible...the English channel played its part too.....

[fesm_ndt]

Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few

 

Still has to be one of the all time most poignant speeches by a politician

 

I actually get a bit annoyed at people rethinking and rewriting history as for every event and especially war victory and losses have numerous factors so to pick one is nonsense.

 

Some factors:

 

- The British spirit mentioned above would not have existed unless Churchill was in power as the former government wanted a peace treaty with Germany

- Churchill appointed an industrialist to shake up the aircraft industry

- Germany's decision to switch from bombing airfields to bombing cities

- Germany's decision to send Stuka's against English fighter aircraft

- The German leadership on the air battle side seemed to be more based on 'lets look good to the boss' than any half decent proper strategy

- etc, etc, etc but I would like to say spirit is a factor but I would also say luck is one of the biggest factors in most battles.

[mcspool]

English channel played its part too.....

 

Well, yes, and a big one. Not wanting to belittle the human effort, but without that stretch of water between England and the mainland Europe, the British Army would not have been able to withstand the force of Germany's Blitzkrieg like so many other European armies in 1939 - 1940.

 

H.

[fesm_ndt]

yep geography, that has been a help and a hinderance in many a battle ....... the list is huge

 

Should we mention the poor weather?

[antarmike]

it was the hurricane and the spitfire that helped to win the BOB...it was the pilots the big wing the radar, the British spirit, ( now lost to process and procedure) it was a host of things, no one product or person won us the BOB...it was all the factors put together...that made it possible...the English channel played its part too.....

It could be argued that the BofB was not won by the RAF but lost by the Luftwaffe.

 

It was incredibly stupid mistakes on the german side that gave victory to the allies.

 

The single attack on the Chain Home Radar was not followed up and the switch to attacking London ensured Germany would loose.

 

The RAF had some very bad tactics, the Vic, etc which meant pilots were spending to much effort trying to fly in very close proximity to each other, and this meant their attentions weren't always on looking out for the enemy fighters. (and was frankly beyond the skill of most pilots)

 

But again flying the German fighters with the bombers, instead of giving the autonomy to use height, was another bad German mistake.

 

It is too complex an issue to say whch fighter won the battle. (the Blenheims and the Defiants also achieved kills, and every kill counted.)

Edited December 15, 2010 by antarmike

[AlienFTM]

... the big wing ...

 

That's a bone of contention in itself.

 

The big wing took forever to form up in the air, whereas scrambling individual squadrons at just the right time had them where they were needed when they were needed and no time wasted.

 

According to Issue 1 of Military Times (who sponsor Arrse, and which copy 1 I reviewed), the results claimed by the big wing are open to debate.

 

Those who decried the big wing were replaced shortly after the battle, leaving its proponents to do as they would.

 

Maybe the big wing was right in the end, but had it alone been employed during the battle, I suspect we'd have lost, because we couldn't have plugged so many holes at the same time.

[antarmike]

That's a bone of contention in itself.

 

The big wing took forever to form up in the air, whereas scrambling individual squadrons at just the right time had them where they were needed when they were needed and no time wasted.

 

According to Issue 1 of Military Times (who sponsor Arrse, and which copy 1 I reviewed), the results claimed by the big wing are open to debate.

 

Those who decried the big wing were replaced shortly after the battle, leaving its proponents to do as they would.

 

Maybe the big wing was right in the end, but had it alone been employed during the battle, I suspect we'd have lost, because we couldn't have plugged so many holes at the same time.

Sept 15th when Luftwaffe pilots had been told RAF was down to 50 fighters, and Big Wing turning up with 60 had a bid psychological impact on the Germans. Apart from this occasion Big Wing didn't have much impact.

 

Big wing was hampered by no command structure, indisipline from Bader who frequently disregarded ground control and went of into airspace of his choosing, and the fact that Hurricanes formed part of the wing and the Spitfire could only climb to height at the rate the Hurricanes could keep up with.

 

Kills claimed for the wing were unbelievable at the time, and with hindsight best research now shows them to be wildy exagerated.

 

I am not impressed by Bader or his idea.

Edited December 14, 2010 by antarmike

[ruxy]

A very complex subject , in my opinion the fact that they were both there. None of the marks were perfect or better than the other at a particular date. Even the Hawker Typhoon was found a good use despite loss of tails that was never fully resolved.. The privateer input in the early days was by people with vision and keeping a watch on Germany during the 1930's.

 

I found this book most enlightening during the lead up to WW2 , the radar chains were most important and just as well the Germans considered British radar to be primitive..

 

http://www.books-by-isbn.com/0-9531544/0953154408-RDFI-The-detection-of-aircraft-by-radio-methods-1935-1945-The-Location-of-Aircraft-by-Radar-Methods-1935-1945-0-9531544-0-8.html

 

It was no good wearing out aircraft and men , using fuel until you had a good fix and then effective management of the situations as they progressed.

 

Bader - all you can do is read all the books and make up your own mind. The pilots under the command of Keith Park were well used but you needed combat experience to survive. All very close run..

Edited December 14, 2010 by ruxy
spelling

[Tony B]

It wasn't that British radar was any better, or worse than German stuff. It was the way it was employed. German controllers used a box system. One fighter One Radar, One controller. As a rauid left a box another aircraft took over.

Britain used a larger Sector system, with a controller able to call on any forces within that sector, or aquire units from outside. These units were then tasked to a and raid and operated autonmously.

[ruxy]

One of the clever things about the German radar systems of beams to fly down etc. was that it was well hidden (circuit incorporated within other innocuous radio equipment) - more clever British research staff found it when they got their hands on a relatively intact aircraft..

 

The Germans flew up and down the East coast using airships prior to the outbreak of WW2 and failed to determine the true use of all the Chain Home masts, if they had got it correct then things would have been different.. The British were also good at getting temp. stations up & running when they were knocked out - such as at Isle of Wight..

 

The Germans must have been wised up by the time Hess made his approach to the coast (if he in fact was not invited).. You can read as many books about Rudolph Hess as you like but we will never know the truth..

[Tony B]

The Knickerbine system was discovered after a microphone picked up a remark by a German aircrewman saying 'The Brititsh will never find it'. The result was every piece of radio equipment was gone over again. The Loran navigation system was found to be very sensitive and outside the usuaul frequency.

[Adrian Barrell]

The Loran navigation system was found to be very sensitive and outside the usuaul frequency.

 

:??? Loran was a US development of GEE principles, a British invention. Nothing to do with the Germans.

[Tony B]

:??? Loran was a US development of GEE principles, a British invention. Nothing to do with the Germans.

Lorenz, not Loran, sorry mind took a holiday. :blush:

[antarmike]

Lorenz, not Loran, sorry mind took a holiday. :blush:

 

Lorenz had a range of about 30 miles (48 km), enough for blind-landing but not good enough for bombing raids over the UK.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams

[Tony B]

Yes Mike, which is why despite, proably through Enigma intercepts, the British knew the aircraft was from a special service squadron. The story comes from a TV interview with R. V. Jones. The crew were plaxced in a bugged room (So un British!) Where the remark was heard. This lead to every part of the radio equipment was tested and checked to the enth degree. That's when the modifications were noticed.

[RattlesnakeBob]

What is also interesting to consider is that having 'won' the Battle of Britain , by 1941 RAF Fighter Command were indulging in fighter 'sweeps' (sometimes known as Rhubarbs) across Northern France....the idea being to tempt/lure the Lluftwaffe fighters up for a scrap..

..Yet in doing so, we completely surrendered every advantage that we had held during the BoB....

especially those of fighting/flying over home territory and hence aircrew shot down were 'recoverable' and also the short 'service time' we preciously enjoyed to get an aircraft re-armed and re-fueled & back up in the air etc etc etc ..

.......and as a consequence... we lost a staggering number of pilots .

.....in fact, significantly more in the period from the Spring of 1941 thru to Spring of 1942 than we lost in the entire periods now recognised as the 'Battle of Britain' and the 'Battle of France' put together....

[ruxy]

Daytime.

 

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Don't forget the Hawker Hurricane night intruders operating against Germans in the main operating from France & the low countries , esp. long range Hurricane 2C "Night Reaper" flown by the Czech Karel Kuttelwascher DFC x 2 , the top night ace (15 destroyed in 42 days). Admitted he did have the advantage of flying over France before the Dunkirk evacuation , his was a sole role with nobody to watch his back and at night..