Why do I want a wartime Jeep?

[jonesy]

For a couple of years now I've had this urge to buy a wartime Jeep where I'd love to visit Normandy in it. I have no background in historic military vehicles (shame on me!) nor have I ever driven or sat in a Jeep.

 

I now have possibly enough funds to buy one. Not a concourse winner but more of a motor pool Jeep where it looks like it has been used. Chances are I will be buying one already restored as I don't have the means for a restoration.

 

My question is though, what made Jeep owners buy their first Jeep and what pitfalls should I look out for?

 

Cheers,

Neil.

[antar]

With £9k to spend you can do far better than that, scrap is at around £225 a ton at the moment.

[ruxy]

Does that mean a Mosquito built by the Canadian Car and Foundry Co. isn't a real Mosquito?

 

Irrespective of country of assembly , Mk. engines , engine(s) manuf. D of M , pre or post WW2 active service - of course it would be a Mosquito (but in any case I don't thing any were still built in the 1950's) . Being so rare - either static or flying IMHO WW2 era. presentation would be acceptable if a little Waltish to the rivet counters.

 

However due to the scale and numbers of the Hotchkiss and French re-builds (even with selective re-assembly of correct body / chassis etc. again re-built as WW2 era. - they are all Walts and should be described as such , well base rims changed for divided , Solex changed for Carter etc. etc. etc. If you wish to have the real ww" era. thing - you would need to have one authenticated by a reliable body and of course the price will be high.

 

It has been a mini industry within a established industry - fooling the unwary for over 40 years that I am aware of.

[Stormin]

With £9k to spend you can do far better than that, scrap is at around £225 a ton at the moment.

 

So you haven't cut up the Combat Engineers Tractor yet then?

[mcspool]

It has been a mini industry within a established industry - fooling the unwary for over 40 years that I am aware of.

 

See this thread http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?19018-Hotchkiss-M201. Failed to sell at £7,550, later sold for £6,600. Or did it?

 

The seller explained where it came from and what it was, well done. Typical Hotchpotch - no offense - looks like a fun jeep.

Edited September 30, 2010 by mcspool

[The Bedford Boys]

The main pitfall of a jeep is that everyone has them. Don't be a lemming. Buy an english 15cwt instead. :-D

[jonesy]

Gents, thanks very much for your input on my thread. I'm in need of your opinions again please.

 

I have the opportunity to buy a '42 Slat Grille 111627. It has a few issues e.g. wrong engine (a 1945 example apparently) but I want some advice on whether it looks good or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'd appreciate any thoughts on it.

 

Neil.

[kpu121265]

Neil, what is the body tub number? What sort of input are you looking for? I have 112054 which is quite close to this chassis no.

It has the wrong pintle hook, temp and amm gauge are wrong, wrong air filter, wrong speedo, it might be the angle of the photo but something looks odd about the transmission hump, does the fuel gauge say 'GAS' as opposed to fuel, is the filterette there, are the seats split back, wheels don't look right, does it have the correct brake and clutch pedal, does it have correct early T84 and contracting handbrake, the cross over tube should not have the breather tube on a slat, wrong intake manifold, the gusset where the bend in the inner side of the pass side wing (near the pass seat) is not like the one on my original slat body, age might be catching up with me and i'm not near my jeeps but i think the fire extinguisher is on the wrong side, it would not have had a fuel can bracket from the factory - there are other things, but of course all this is only relevant if you were looking for an original factory finish slat. The chassis number is in the slat range - but it is fairly easy to get hold of slat grill and add it to an MB chassis with some repro plates. The data plates are not in the same posn as they are on my slat either but there has been some chatter about that on G503 - but that is making me think it might be a repro tub.

If you want what appears on the face of it a substantially sorted jeep, this looks like a good candidate but i would be cautious parting with slat money for it. Of course 'substantially' needs to be validated. What are the things which look like bolts at the rear of the rear spring hangers? I would also be asking if it has blown a hose or boiled up recently as it looks as if the head/HT leads have had rad water on them recently. It seems odd to have put what appears to be quite a lot of work in to this, but have the horn held on with a G clamp, miss the retaining plates for the tranmission lever boots, not have fitted any of the ground straps etc.

I am not trying to be negative - just trying to help.

Regards

Ken

Edited October 2, 2010 by kpu121265
correction

[kpu121265]

Sorry, i should add, it might be the correct pintle hook, but it has been modified to add the trailer saftey chain eye bolts.

Ken

[mike65]

Irrespective of country of assembly , Mk. engines , engine(s) manuf. D of M , pre or post WW2 active service - of course it would be a Mosquito (but in any case I don't thing any were still built in the 1950's) . Being so rare - either static or flying IMHO WW2 era. presentation would be acceptable if a little Waltish to the rivet counters.

 

If you can count rivets it definitely is not a Mosquito.

 

With respect to the Jeep question and the general public, it is true most cannot tell one jeep from another, some even think jeeps came from Solihull, especially if painted green and black.

 

The important thing is to make sure that you are happy with whatever you get. If you are dead set on a real WW2 jeep would you will be happy wth a later one in drag.

I agree with many opinions that the best thing you can do is research, learn to spot the differences, try out all types and hunt till you find exactly what you want.

 

Mike

[KMF]

MD.Juan is a company based in the Philippines, as most already know they make most of the replacement bodys and chassis used during restorations today. They also restore a few cars each year to sell directly to customers all over the world. They cost about 11000 USD. (about £7000)Then you have to import it, that will cost about £2000 plus 5percent vat still can be good value, they are due to have some ready before the end of the year. They advertise them in their news letter so you have to register in their website and they will let you know when they are ready, but you have to be quick as they go very quickly. Hope that is of some help to you

[N.O.S.]

....I have the opportunity to buy a '42 Slat Grille 111627. It has a few issues e.g. wrong engine (a 1945 example apparently) but I want some advice on whether it looks good or not....

 

 

Ian, Ken's excellent reply convinces me I am definitely not qualified to advise on the authenticity of any Jeep (although I suspect that mother of a boil-up might just turn out to be red dirt road dust? :cool2:).

 

But I think I might be qualified enough to give you simple advice - as just a general mv enthusiast - on whether it looks good or not -

 

Yes, it does! So you really need to decide what it is you want.

 

If you want a totally authentic Jeep which will stand the closest scrutiny from those know know and understand Jeep DNA, I'd recommend you take someone suitably qualified with you when looking.

 

If you just want a really nice looking Jeep to simply enjoy the pleasures of driving and participating in events to entertain the general public, go and find yourself the tidiest example you can within your budget which is mechanically well sorted and which should therefore be reliable, and which makes you think you are looking at a real wartime Jeep.

 

The danger here is - you might end up paying more than you should have for what turns out to be not quite as correct / original as it should be.

 

But if you like it and it looks good, and you get years of pleasure out of it, is this really such a problem?

 

I recently decided not to take my 1949 CJ3A and make it look cosmetically much more like a wartime example (which would have devalued it and cost the same - when added to the base Jeep value - as buying a nice wartime example!!), and instead bought a really nice wartime example. Fortunately, when I had a very knowledgeable Jeep expert look it over (after I had got it home :shocked:) it passed with a very respectable score. Maybe I was lucky, but I've seen enough Jeeps to know what looks good, and when I drove this one it somehow just felt right for me, so decision made. Since I have no intention of selling it, any difference between what I paid and the actual value is of no great importance.

 

I have the greatest admiration for those who seek perfection in their Jeeps - and aren't there some stunning Jeeps out there as a result! Just because I can't tell the difference between a totally authentic Jeep and one built up to look like one, doesn't mean I get any less enjoyment out of Jeep ownership.

 

So good luck with your search, and simply smile when someone chooses to be critical of any aspect of your choice :-D

Edited October 2, 2010 by N.O.S.
grammar

[Great War truck]

I dont normally comment on Jeeps but this one is quite interesting. Number 111627 would have been bult in January 1942 so the fire extinguisher would be on the passenger side (until Feb 42). The strengthening bracket also changed in Feb 42 and although this one is hard to make out it appears to be pre this date. A lot of the parts appear to be of later war time origin, but as you say there is nothing to say that is wrong, just not original to the Jeep. Same as the fuel can bracket, just a later modification.

 

However, the bolts on the back of the spring hangars are curious. There should be rivets there, but maybe they worked lose, broke etc and were replaced with bolts. We have done that before with our trucks but it is worth a question to the owner.

 

What appears to be rad water is also all over the engine side of the scuttle as well as the back axle and inside all the wheels. Is it possible that this is just red dust?

 

What are split back seats and how much is "slat grill money". it does appear to be quite a well sorted Jeep, but you never know what might go wrong with it. I think if you are happy with what you can see then go for it, but if there is any element of doubt then you should let it go.

 

I bought my Jeep based on 5 photos and i knew nothing about them at the time. i could have been taken for a ride, but luckily i got a real gem.

 

Tim

Edited October 2, 2010 by Great War truck

[KMF]

Wel i think it looks like a realy nice car and worth that kind of money. I am no expert but i have done a lot of reserch recently as i have just bought my first jeep. It is a feb 42 slat grill but had to pay big money for it

[Richard Farrant]

If you took a slat grille Willys to a show, and it had an electric wiper motor fitted to the bottom of the driver's screen, the rivet counters would have a field day. But..today I was shown a photo taken just before the end of the war, of a slat grille as I have just described, it was in British Army service, also, with no census number on the bonnet, and the "S" letter denoting Supressed, was painted by the rear wheel arch. It depends what you are looking for, but the "in service" look allows a few later parts to be fitted provided it fits into the time period you are depicting. When or if vehicles went in for an overhaul or rebuild, a lot of mix n'match went on.

[kpu121265]

Gents, i was not trying to knock this jeep, just trying to establish what Neil is looking for. There are many questions about that jeep with regards to it's slat heritage, but if the slat heritage is not important then they are not relevant as i say. The body number on the gusset near the steering tube (outside of it) would help identify the body. The split front seats refer to the tube which forms the seat frame beiing split in the upper middle section (middle of your back). Just to be clear, i have no issue at all with what anyone 'has' or 'wants' as a jeep - my caution was with regards to this being suggested to be a slat gril when there are some questions to be asked in my opinion. Slat gril's (and i have had 5 of them through my hands over the years) i believe attract a premium price due to the fact that they only made something over 25 thousand of them, for some reason i have 26056 as the total production but don't hold me to that. 112054 which i have was assembled on 15th/16th Jan '42 as far as i have been able to ascertain. My mind was failing on the fire ext -in my notes i have that chassis 120697 was when the fire ext. moved to drivers side. So this ones seems correct on the pass side. I've bought lots of 'long distance' vehicles and my advice is to ask as many questions as you can before you hand the cash over - by the time the vehicle is sitting on your drive it is too late to do anything about a mistake.....

 

I was very lucky with 112054 in that the gearbox was dated A1242 and both axles were dated 011242, and the engine no is close enough to the chassis for there to be decent chance it is original to the vehicle.

 

I am the first to walk away if rivet counters was to score points on my restorations, i do the best i can and present the vehicles as the best results of my endeavours - nothing else.

 

Ken

[N.O.S.]

Gents, i was not trying to knock this jeep, just trying to establish what Neil is looking for. There are many questions about that jeep with regards to it's slat heritage, but if the slat heritage is not important then they are not relevant as i say. .....Ken

 

I thought yours was a most informative and helpful response! It made me realise how little I know about my own Jeep!!!! :blush:

[jonesy]

Gents, I do appreciate your thoughts on this jeep and the points you are picking will be sent to the seller to see what he says.

 

Aesthetically it looks exactly how I'd picture my own jeep but I do need to step back and think hard on whether this is the one...even with it's faults.

[Enigma]

For me a WW2 jeep should have a WW2, body, engine and chassis.

A slatgrill with late WW2 engine wouldn't bother me to much.

Also incorrect/although WW2 parts don't bother me to much.

 

Main thing is apart from the earlier mentioned WW2 parts is if its in good mechanical order so no stuffed gearbox, engine or other major stuff.

You may have to do some work on it but its mostly easy enough.

 

If the price is correct then go for it.

Rivetcounters will always have something to say but you 'll have to decide if it needs to be a Jeep that just rolled off the production line with all matching numbers or a Jeep repaired and used in battle area's.

 

So what is a correct price? No idea.....

[David Robertson]

Gents, I do appreciate your thoughts on this jeep and the points you are picking will be sent to the seller to see what he says.

 

Aesthetically it looks exactly how I'd picture my own jeep but I do need to step back and think hard on whether this is the one...even with it's faults.

Hi, that slat grill looks good, i bought a '45 ford gpw on ebay USA in the summer of 2008. I bought it on photo's and several questions from the seller. It was complete but needing a rebuilt or replacement engine and the transmisson gaskets renewed plus all the little items to get it road legal in this country. I was happy with my buy although all the little items take much longer than you think. I took this jeep to Normandy 2009. Anyway, back to the point: i used a company called Rinkens for collection and delivery and dealt with their agents in this country ( Kingstown Shipping ) for payment. Cost was about £1900 inc VAT @ 5%. I can recommend the shippers. Jeep arrived at Chatam Docks 11th November. There followed a long drive from Inverness and back with Disco' and trailer. Hope this has been of some help, good luck and enjoy your new toy, regards David.

[jonesy]

Thanks David. I decided to go for it in the end. The Jeep is currently heading to Houston ready for its little trip across the pond. I've also gone with Kingstown and they've been very helpful.

 

The seller has been great too. Always in contact with updates and even sent a few videos of him driving it and getting it ready for delivery.

[Wolfy]

I also used Rinkens / Kingstown for my 42 Jeep, they were very good.

 

Only grumble I had was additional taxes to pay at this end not in the quoted price but not a lot I could do about that.

[Big ray]

Yeah, from what I've gathered on the forums, the Hotchkiss jeeps are basically wartime jeeps with all the issues ironed out.

 

One of them does sound good but I'm not sure if I'd be happy owning a jeep which I knew wasn't 100% wartime authentic.

 

£9K is basically my budget which puts me right at the lower end of a quality jeep.:cry:

 

It might be worth pointing out that the Hotchkiss factory refurbished something like 160 thousand Jeeps in 1944 after the liberation of Paris for the U.S.army. They went into one end of the factory, Willy`s or Ford, stripped, refurbished and reassembled, using Willy`s or Ford bits for the rebuid..... net result, a composite Jeep. There is a lot of rubbish talked about the genuine Jeep!!!!!:kissoncheek:

[Big ray]

I'm afraid that argument falls flat on its face. A "Genuine" Jeep is one that is built in the states and not a licenced built copy on a production line in France.

 

Jeeps were flat packed and assembled over here by lots of back street garages, hardly U.S. built. The French acquired the the plant and built the Jeeps under license, the early Hotchkiss was predominently U.S. bits, and 6volt.:kissoncheek:

[Jessie The Jeep]

My Hotch was 6v when first built, later upgraded to 12v with a second 6v battery between the front seats. When the French gave it a major rebuild in 1966, it was again upgraded to 24v, and was in service into the 1990's.

[jonesy]

Reviving my thread as after nearly two months, I now have the Jeep in my posession. It's a thing of beauty with only minor issues e.g. a number of bolts not fitted, speedo not working and jumping out of 2nd.

 

I fixed the speedo problem as I found that the cable had been fitted the wrong way round so the square drive was falling out of the speedo. I now have the problem of the speedo oscillating wildly. Cable looks good with no kinks and the square drives looks fine so I'm guessing it's the speedo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers,

Neil.