Museums, Runners or not

[robin craig]

So, there are many vehicles that are restored and driven into museums around the world.

 

Should those museums keep them maintained as runners or should they be left to deteriorate into non runners again?

 

My feelings are that if possible they should be maintained as runners.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Robin

[Markheliops]

I agree Robin but I would imagine costs are the deciding factor.

 

I think there are many museums that do maintain the vehicles in a running condition however, the smaller ones would struggle to keep all the exhibits in a road worthy condition.

 

Most museums are happy to take on volunteers to assist with the upkeep of vehicles.

 

Markheliops

[Tony B]

Surley a museum has a duty to prevent exhibits deteriating? Question is , how far does the duty go. Vehicles don't like sitting about.

[Marmite!!]

Surley a museum has a duty to prevent exhibits deteriating? Question is , how far does the duty go. Vehicles don't like sitting about.

 

Or they do what they do at the REME Museum, Arborfield... scrap them..

When I was last up there searching the archives I asked the curator the whereabouts of the REME converted Ferret ARV air-portable Armoured Recovery Vehicle, I was told it was in such a poor state as it had sat outside for years it was scraped, this was probably the only Ferret ARV in existance...:argh:

 

Also museums DO sell off vehicles that have been donated to them which I think is a bit out of order...

 

REME Ferret ARV

Edited December 26, 2009 by Marmite!!

[Niels v]

Bovington tank museum and Bournemouthe university are currently doing a PhD reseache project about how to preserve vehicles both running and static. The results of the project culd be very interesting.

[Enigma]

In Overloon the majority of vehicles were restored as runners, they are sittin still now.

They should (as in Bovington?) hold a special day for the public where a selection of vehicles will be driven around.

Costs? Well, if they had restored the Panther to running condition (it was relatively easy) then the public would probably come to see it driving en masse...earning a lot of extra $$$$.

[Adrian Barrell]

It's a hard one to call. It will depend on how the museum concerned views it's collection.

 

I was part of the team that restored to running two Comets. One for Parola in Finland and one for Munster in Germany. I doubt the vehicles have been run much if at all since as I don't think running vehicles is or was part of the museums policy.

 

They were offered the 'restorations' in exchange for exhibits for Bovington and gladly accepted them for what they were but I wouldn't think they thought of them as long term runners.

[GoranWC51]

This is slightly off topic:

 

Question to you Adrian: I was in regular contact, up until a few years ago, with a guy by the name of David who was part of the Parola team when you restored the Comet. David used to have a Ram which he got from one of the ranges. I have lost Davids address and e-mail and would love to get in contact with him again.

 

My e-mail: goran_noren(at)yahoo(dot)com

 

Thanks, and I wish you and everybody else here a Happy New Year [with lots of MV's for us to play with :-) ]

 

Goran N

Lidingo

Sweden

[FWDTEXAS]

All the vehicles and bikes at Kingsbury Aero Drome are runners and are regularly maintained and exercized by volunteers. At Pancho Villa State Park the FWD is inside as a static display but the whole place is climate controled. Alas the armored Jeffry Quad sits autside.

[Adrian Barrell]

Hi Goran, David spoke of you often. He has moved to Scotland but still has the Ram!

 

I will e mail you his contact details.

[phil munga]

I would not have thought that once in running condition and kept inside they would not take much to be kept in runnning order ,,,,

anyone know if the armored Jeffry Quad is available as a model

[agripper]

You should look at some of the aircraft museums for waste of perfectly good airframes. Cosford had a MK1 Vulcan whiich they left to rot and in the end sent to the scrapman. We saddly dont have teh climate to leave vehicles outside and not worry about decay . The loss of so many rare and unusual vehciles is traggic. I dont have to much of a problem with museum selling of exhibits within reason, they may not come in as part of the theme and so long as they are preserved whats the problem. This is to a point as there are time museum sell for no other reason other than money, rather than to let others have it. Then you will find some who have loads of teh same vehilce but in different marks. this is of interest but the general public like to see as many different types rather than lots of the same.

[ashley]

There is a famous motor museum not to far from me which has definitely sold / swapped vehicles over many years, and at one stage had sold many of the original registration numbers to collectors, or in small print expected a 99 year lease of the vehicle loaned to them for restoration / display.

 

Some museums are left exhibits as long as they are never used/driven again by request of the donors.

A lot of small items...medals uniform items are stored away never to be seen again or lost in storage ?

 

Ashley

[Lauren Child]

There are two competing factors for museums. Preserving the vehicle means keeping as much original as possible, and marking any replacements to ensure that they can be told apart in the future. In this way the exhibits can be preserved, but this normally means non-runners, as the original parts are precious and preserved from wear and tear, although the vehicle is left (as far as possible) in running condition.

 

Other vehicles are preserved in working condition to show the human impact of those vehicles. You only get a sense of perspective from the human act of witnessing the vehicles in action. In this way the experiences are preserved, and the other static exhibits are put into context.

 

You can't really do both, as wear and tear / maintenance has an impact on vehicles.

[Lauren Child]

The loss of so many rare and unusual vehciles is traggic.

 

 

Buildings cost a lot of money to build & operate so it's simply not possible for most museums to get everything under cover. I doubt any of the museums mentionned in this thread would have intentionally left exhibits to rust away, but without the facilities you simply have to rely on enough manpower and funds to keep renovating and preserving over and over again. In this way you keep refreshing regularly enough that serious problems won't have a chance to develop.

 

I would imagine in these cases, a critical problem occurred between refreshes without warning, or other factors prevented them being swapped or sold before they went beyond salvage. No museum would intentionally waste money, effort or exhibits, as all are extremely limited resources.

[steveo578]

 

Niels v

 

Bovington tank museum and Bournemouthe university are currently doing a PhD reseache project about how to preserve vehicles both running and static. The results of the project culd be very interesting.

 

 

 

I would be truly astonished if anything of interest comes of this, unlike an MA or MSc which can be awarded to an individual as part of a collaborative study, a PhD is the effort of an individual not of a university department or a museum. I would imagine that shed loads of HMVF members (especially those who have completed restorations) already have accrued knowledge equal to or better than many PhDs recipients. I also wonder by who and how the PhD is to be accessed- I am not aware that the University of Bournemouth has a department of armour engineering. It has an Archaeology and Heritage department, but it is worrying when the course synopses includes a course from the architecture & built Environment department,(sustainable construction), if the staff can’t get a simple public profile right- what chance academic rigor?

 

The work of a PhD is a closed publication of the university therefore to read it requires a financial contribution to the copyright holders i.e. the university/museum, so is this another scheme thought up by the museums financial planners? I have read several synopses of PhDs on AFV history related subjects (admittedly not technical engineering subjects) and I have to say I am not impressed- none were presenting unique fundamental evidence or conclusions. One which became a well know book could in addition be regarded as fundamentally flawed in its conclusions and could be regarded as jingoistic.

 

I doubt it is realistic for all MV exhibits at a museum or collection to be runners; it is a matter of cost- a few private museums in the U.S. aspire to this, but basically have an almost bottomless wallet.

 

I agree with Safariswing the way stuff vanishes or is disposed of and in addition the attitude of boards of trusties is a mystery. The climate of Aborfield or Cosford could not be classed as severe, an externally stored exhibit such as Ferret or a modern aircraft is conservable without huge expense.

 

Steve

Edited December 28, 2009 by steveo578
punctuation

[No Signals]

I know of interesting, worthwhile donated items at a museum being sold off as if coming from a private seller on Ebay. Other items that had been correctly dry stored for years were, at the whim of the museum director, put in a skip. I 'rescued' many to preserve them. These were pieces that would have helped make some of the museum exhibits nearer the state of being 'runners'. This is all despite the previously mentioned individuals supposed love of 'working/noisey' exhibits.

 

Running items do bring in more visitors. They can be a very good source of revenue that otherwise would not have come through the gates. As has been proved time and again by those museums that have been fortunate enough to get on this bandwagon. It has been the saving of one that I know of.

[Runflat]

anyone know if the armored Jeffry Quad is available as a model

 

I think the simple answer is "no"!

 

Have a look here for more info and leads:

http://www.landships.freeservers.com/new_pages/jeffrey_ac_no1_info.htm

http://www.warwheels.net/jeffery1915ACNo1INDEX.html

[early british ww2]

Or they do what they do at the REME Museum, Arborfield... scrap them..

When I was last up there searching the archives I asked the curator the whereabouts of the REME converted Ferret ARV air-portable Armoured Recovery Vehicle, I was told it was in such a poor state as it had sat outside for years it was scraped, this was probably the only Ferret ARV in existance...:argh:

 

Also museums DO sell off vehicles that have been donated to them which I think is a bit out of order...

 

REME Ferret ARV

I , as many on here owning several vehicles understands how much time , money and effort is required to maintain several vehicles in a roadworthy state but we still manage to do it somehow

To be honest when it comes down to historically important one offs or last one standing etc I would much rather see them either donated to another museum who has the time , effort and resource to restore them or at least offer dry storage or for them to be offered to private individuals who can do the same so that these vehicles at least have a fighting chance of being saved for future generations to enjoy rather than scrapping them off due to it being someones opinion that a vehicle is too far gone .

 

I don't totally agree with museums selling off donated items unless it is in the name of self preservation in the sense that it will save the museum from going to the wall as we have lost too many such as the Grange Caverns at Holywell and The Museum of Army Transport at Beverley - Anyone know what ever happened to all the vehicles from these two and are we likely to ever see them again - I do recall an auction after Grange Cavern closed

 

cheers:coffee:

[alan turner (RIP)]

I used to drive the Chevy quad down at Firepower either as a single or full train, it had been donated to the museum but remained in running order (roughly). Because it could carry customers it had a bench seat accross the back (with seat belts), and normal 2 in front but non original wheels and tyres: Marketing appropriated it and we managed to run it for nearly 5 years. Plugs points and water I could handle despite it having 50% more pistons than a Cortina or Escort, but I wouldnt touch anything where public saftey was concerned ie brakes, as I dont hold a public liability policy. If it was only for my use then no problem on those points.

 

Anyway the public loved it , during school holidays it would carry up to 500 people, from babes in arms to 80 year old ex gunners, per week with a 50p donation each, around the available Arsenal site especially if you could give a commentary about the special places to find in there.

 

Biggest problem was drivers, officially there were 3 authorised drivers two volunteers and the education officer, who tried his best to do his share but work came first, the other volunteer could only do one day a weekend, so the bulk of the driving fell to me, any petrol, problems or putting battery on charge reported to E/O to cover.

 

The vehicle had had a new 28hp Bedford 3.5 OHV fitted to replace REME unit fitted at demob but the only other time it needed money spent was a brakes problem when it was attended to by Richard Farrant.

 

Lack of money and a family bereavement meant that I couldn't be available last year so the curator took the old girl back into museum stock, coulndt blame him, much as I loved driving it and was the only one who could do a slalom around the lamp post in no 1 street full train.

 

So anyway there it is back in museum stock currently sitting in the open back yard of building 41 suffering the rain snow and frosts.Building 41 itself is mothballed due to heating and lighting costs escalating and thats got a large glass frontage so its more like a greenhouse in summer.

 

Visitor numbers have not improved! The February vehicle meet has been dropped.

 

Got to be careful of what I say as I'm going back to the museum as a volunteer 2010 cos its a brilliant display of artillery pieces, including self propelled kit and having spoken quietly to Richard I now know which ones could run if we could get more entusiastic mechanically minded volunteers interested.

 

Wouldn't it be smashing to see S100's.Matadors, Millitants and Martians Morris quads and FC101's chugging around pulling their appropriate loads!!

[robin craig]

I think that Bovington, past errors forgiven, have in my opinion got it right with putting punters backsides on seats to watch running vehicles to draw crowds and raise funds.

 

Sadly other museums have not been able or not seen that this really is a way to go.

 

Architecture has eaten away at funds and as a result collections have dwindled because space is limited. The once great collection of CMPs held by the Canadian War Museum has evaporated, other vehicles have been farmed out to organisations with less than stellar buildings or even a lack of buildings.

 

Quite frankly I am outraged as to how this has been done by public civil servants who are supposed to be working for us and am on the trail of finding out exactly where items have gone to and what is being done about things.

 

I am unable to be more forthcoming at this time but pictures and emails will be put up gradually.

 

It pains me when private individuals have offered to care for vehicles on behalf of the museum only to be turned down and the vehicle left outside to fill with water and degrade as so quickly happens in our climate.

 

Museums need to get in on private financing initiatives to keep things in such a way as future generations will have something to look at

 

More later

 

Robin:argh:

[robin craig]

So here are pictures of a somewhat sad 432 that I took a couple of months ago. By now both will have filled with more snow and rain and started to fill up again for the winter. The first vehicle is on loan to a government establishment but is owned by a federal museum who will not part with it but will do nothing to secure its current position.

 

An offer "without prejudice" has been made to block the vehicle up and open the drain plug and screen that and erect a temporary structure over it by volunteers doing the work and providing materials at no charge but that has been refused.

 

This winter this vehicle will for about the third winter in a row sit outside at the end of a yard where they will push the snow up against it and over it.

 

Note the plaque from when the vehicle was refurbed and then presented to the museum, I was present and watched it drive in.

 

The second vehicle that is partially covered with the blue tarp is "on loan" to a supposed museum but again owned by the same federal museum who are doing nothing to ensure that the museum it is on loan to care for it. Sorry for the poor quality picture.

 

How many more years before these two previous museum items will be more than a difficult or expensive rebuild or just simple become junk

 

This makes me so mad, in case you had not picked up on that vibe.

 

R:argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh::argh:

[Stone]

There's a lot of rust in there. And with a Peak turret! :argh:

 

Stone

[diver99]

Bovington tank museum and Bournemouthe university are currently doing a PhD reseache project about how to preserve vehicles both running and static. The results of the project culd be very interesting.

 

 

This project is more to do with metalurgy and corrosion than the actual running or non-running of vehicles. One answer is, "don't leave vehicles out in the rain". Also the project is a front for funding. More academic and lottery funding may be available if there are viable 'recognised' research. There is also an element of ego attached to the originator of the idea.

[paulob1]

I would like to do a museum with working machines...every day someone went to the place there would be machines moving in the yard or off road, with commentary about it...machines do need to be under cover... museums dont make much money but they can spend an awful lot, that's my experience so far...and all I have done is a bit of research to see how viable it is to open and run one, SOMETHING I HAVE BEEN KEEN ON FOR MANY YEARS...