question Low Loader/Plant Truck/Transport Question

[madrat]

HI All,

As you may already have gathered I have a passion for large rusty mv's and living in the middle of nowhere! I also have a habit of buying slow 'not great on the road' type stuff.

 

I would dearly love to get to more shows and the only way that is going to happen is if I sort out transport for my toys. All the big shows are an 900 mile round trip for me :cry:

 

I am completely ignorant of anything truck related but have come to the conclusion that I have two options!

 

1) Tractor unit and low loader trailer

2) Plant type rigid truck

 

 

I would appreciate information from anyone on the following:

 

 

 

• Recommendations, what do you use and why?
  
• What to avoid
  
• Tax, testing and insurance advice
  
• Suitability to carry a tracked vehicle of 14 tons, a stolly and a Scammell
  

 

 

I will have a limited budget too! I've spent all my money saving mv's from the international Olympic committee :-D

Edited September 11, 2008 by madrat
blithering imcompetance

[Stormin]

I still think this is the way to go, paying another company to transport them to shows will bankrupt me! I reckon for instance that it would cost me £2-3k to attend W&P, I love this hobby but I cannot justify spending that sum of money on transport! I've got too much scrap to buy!

 

£2-3k You could swim the Stolly to Kent for that!

(If you erect a Sail for a bit of Eco assistance, and only run the engines for bilge pumping)

 

Or ask Cat Weasel if he's any room on deck next time he's passing on the Round Britain race!

[gritineye]

Towing loaded trailers on Historic vehicle tax / insurance is not an option if I read it correctly, best to check.

[madrat]

Surely the Pioneer will be upto pulling a decent trailer when completed!

 

Yup sure will but still going to be a problem going a good distance, I'd rather not tow with it on the road, just to be safe....

 

 

Can't see any means of transporting three vehicles at once unless on an over length low loader, STGO again will require a movement order and cost a fortune

 

Should have made that clear, I would only be moving one vehicle at a time!

 

 

Isn't the Pioneer (8ft 5" I think) awfully close to this maximum width limit?

What is the figure exactly?

 

Bit concerned about the Ward now at 8ft 4" I think.

 

The pioneer is over width but can be registered differently (lets not get into it here!) See http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?t=7922

[Stormin]

I can't see it could cost that much..... can it? The trick would be to find someone to back load your stuff to shows. Mind you looking at your location this may be a bit of a problem.

 

Richard

 

Back loads are the way to go for discount transport.

As you say Madrat may have a problem with were he lives, but there's no real time constraints for getting it to and from events. Maybe a few stopovers, using different hauliers could work out. Awkward to arrange I know but could save a few bob.

[madrat]

I agree I could do it cheaper but we are quite a bit out of the way! I tried to get a stolly moved 500 miles recently at short notice and the cost was going to be £2600+Vat :shocked: wouldn't like to be let down on a back load and end up forking out for that!

 

Might be cheaper to swim it down after all, not sure if the scammell will fit in the back tho? :n00b:

[Grumpy]

opps, I answered without thinking. You DON'T need a movement order for carrying one on a trailer or vehicle. A load can be 9' 6".

 

The Stalwart is 103" (8' 7") that is overwidth for moveing on its own wheels. a vehicle such as a stalwart has to comply to a max width of a tad over 8' 4".

 

The Stalwart is 3 inches to wide to drive on the road, (without a movement order) and maybe carrying it as a load has real advantages, because this IS completely legal.

 

A Stalwart is not over width for use on the road if it is registered as a “Light Locomotive” as the maximum width for a Locomotive is 2.75 metres. The definition of a Light Locomotive according to the Construction and Use Regulations is:

 

“A mechanically propelled vehicle which is not constructed itself to carry a load except water, fuel, accumulators tools and loose equipment which exceeds 7370 kgs but not 11690 kgs.”

 

The main use of the Stalwart was as a UBRE fuel vehicle so it fits in quite nicely with this category.

 

We use a FL10 beavertail 4x2 for moving the Stolly around and it fits the job just right, have a payload capacity of just over 11 ton but you have to be careful how you load as its quite easy to overload the front axle. We paid just over £3,500 3 years ago and its cost about £1,000 to plate it in that time (most of that was tyres and we will get a fair few years out of them now). High centre of gravity has not been a problem and we are on air, good old leaf springs would be even better. Fuel wise we average about 12 mpg loaded. Would really like a 6x2 to be able to carry a 432 but you double your cost for an extra 5 Ton in capacity.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Grumpy

[AndyFowler]

Hmmmm :idea:! Would this be ok ! :-D Wedding present from Mrs Madrat maybe ! :-D http://www.milweb.net/classifieds/large_image.php?ad=43830&cat=4

[ArtistsRifles]

Another issue with low loaders (of the hired variety) is if you want something moved on a weekend - it don't happen, at least not without a premium, without much arguments/haggling as apparently it screws up the tacho for the following week.

Just found this the hard way as I need to move the OT about 10 miles out and 10 miles back this weekend. Tried getting a low-loader for a Sat pick up /Sunday collection and it was a total no go. Got to have the thing picked up on Friday and collected on Monday - which means 4 trips out to Gt Yeldham/Braintree instead of the planned 2 and massively increased costs - the diesel to drive it there would have been £50 - you really don't want to know what the transport is gonna cost! :shocked::shocked:

[antarmike]

A Stalwart is not over width for use on the road if it is registered as a “Light Locomotive” as the maximum width for a Locomotive is 2.75 metres. The definition of a Light Locomotive according to the Construction and Use Regulations is:

 

“A mechanically propelled vehicle which is not constructed itself to carry a load except water, fuel, accumulators tools and loose equipment which exceeds 7370 kgs but not 11690 kgs.”

 

 

Again Light Locomotive is not a registration class. It is a vehicle definition. you cannot register any vehicle as a "light locomotive"

[antarmike]

and when a light locomotive is allowed to carry fuel, it is its own fuel. if it is carrying in a tank or jerrycans or what, and the fuel is intended for use in another vehicle then it is a load.

A vehicle is not a locomotive if if is designed to carry a load. The Army describe the Stalwart as A high Mobility LOAD CARRIER HMLC.

Edited September 12, 2008 by antarmike

[Poptopshed]

Batten down the hatches.....:shake::shake:

 

 

 

:-D

[antarmike]

Yep here we go again....I have not got a lot more to say on the Stollie, it has all been said before.

 

IT IS NOT A lOCOMOTIVE being designed to carry loads. IT IS OVERWIDTH FOR USE ON ITS OWN WHEELS.

 

There is no easy way around this one I am afraid.

Edited September 12, 2008 by antarmike

[ArtistsRifles]

Batten down the hatches.....:shake::shake:

 

 

 

:-D

 

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

 

Calll me a cynical old wotsit - but sometimes I get the feeling this width business only revolves around Gov't revenue - if over-width vehicles were allowed to roam freely under their own power the best the Gov't can hope for is £180 from each one - but most would be tax exempt! However - force the owners of such vehicles to have to use low-loaders etc and the amount of revenue garnered in goes up exponentially - last time I looked a good few years ago it could be around £5,000 per low-loader.....

[Adrian Barrell]

I assume (dangerous!) that the width restriction only applies to vehicles being registered from now on. Is there any documentation implying you will no longer be able to use an overwidth registered vehicle?

[nz2]

Transporting problems are not just confind to the U.K. Here on the other side of the world we are faced with the same costs and problems in moving larger vintage items. I note from the threads to date there has been no mention of the advantage in using dedicated transport from a security aspect. Load up and take it home, with no stop overs in insecure yards and unwanted attention from vandals or the like. ( Yes there are about here too!) A backload may not be diect and involve the item been off loaded then reloaded latter to complete the journey. This in itself produces another issue of damage occuring during this proceedure.

Having ones own truck avoids this problem but as has been pointed out ,lack of use with it just sitting idle does not help it in other ways. Attitudes of inspecting offices at vehicle testing plays a important part. Some are interested in seeing older vehicles maintained and used, and are aware it is only infrequently used, where as other inspectors have no interest in old iron.

To clarify my postion the truck used is a J series Bedford, repowered to diesel and used to cart about our vintage tractors to shows. Also to collect items coming in for restoration ( WW1 period). As well as used for transporting at times produce from our orchard operation. Total distance per year is still low at about 3000 km.

It's conveniate to have it and use it at our choice in time, but that has its cost.

Doug

[antarmike]

It is my understanding that if a vehicle has been registered in the past in error and it has been put into a taxation class that does not match its use, it is illegal, and it is up to the present registered owner to ensure that the taxation class of the vehicle matches his use of the vehicle. If there is a discrepanncy it is his duty to notify DVLA and get the correct tax class.

 

If a vehicle falls outside construction and use regs, by virtue of its width or any other reason, its use on the road is illegal, unless it precisely meets the Conditions of Special types general order (STGO), in terms of design, use, speed limits, prior notification etc. There are a list of categories. An overwidth vehicle has to fit like a hand in a glove into one of these categories

 

I understand that use of an overwidth vehicle that does not fall into an STGO category is illegal, whether or not it is already registered.

 

The documentation that prevents the lawful use of an overwidth vehicle, that is also not able to comply with STGO, is the Construction and Use Regs.

Edited September 12, 2008 by antarmike

[antarmike]

That'll put the Cat amongst the pidgeons...

 

memo to self, dig out your hard hat...

[Grumpy]

Again Light Locomotive is not a registration class. It is a vehicle definition. you cannot register any vehicle as a "light locomotive"

 

When you register a Light Locomotive you list it as a “Light Locomotive” under the D3 category “Body Type” same as you would a “Recovery Vehicle”, “Goods Vehicle” etc.

 

and when a light locomotive is allowed to carry fuel, it is its own fuel. if it is carrying in a tank or jerrycans or what, and the fuel is intended for use in another vehicle then it is a load.

A vehicle is not a locomotive if if is designed to carry a load. The Army describe the Stalwart as A high Mobility LOAD CARRIER HMLC.

 

Mike I agree it is a play on the wording in the C&U regs, but they are silent regarding the use of the fuel a Light Locomotive is carrying, and in English Law this is what some people call a “loop hole”. No doubt it will be closed at some point.

 

I assume (dangerous!) that the width restriction only applies to vehicles being registered from now on. Is there any documentation implying you will no longer be able to use an overwidth registered vehicle?

 

No, it’s the opposite, the old regs. had a maximum of 2.5 metres for “Normal” goods vehicles, and was amended (amendment 4 from memory, but my memory is not that good nowadays”) to 2.55 metres but remains to same for Locomotives and refrigerated.

 

It is my understanding that if a vehicle has been registered in the past in error and it has been put into a taxation class that does not match its use, it is illegal, and it is up to the present registered owner to ensure that the taxation class of the vehicle matches his use of the vehicle. If there is a discrepanncy it is his duty to notify DVLA and get the correct tax class.

 

 

Fully Agree

 

The documentation that prevents the lawful use of an overwidth vehicle, that is also not able to comply with STGO, is the Construction and Use Regs.

 

Yes, but please remember the maximum width for various types of vehicles listed in the C&U regs. is different, i.e. goods vehicle over 3500 kg gross 2.55 metres, Locomotive 2.75 metres etc. etc.

 

Yep here we go again....I have not got a lot more to say on the Stollie, it has all been said before.

 

Quite so, this thread was not started to discuss Stolly’s being over width, so the issue should never have been raised.

 

If it needs to be debated more it should be on a different thread.

[antarmike]

Yes I agree but Madrat is posing a question that includes to the best way to transport a Stollie, and is wondering if a plant trailer or an artic has advantages, it is relevant comment to point out that to be legal, A stollie has to be carried on another vehicle, so whatever he chooses from his two options, he has to choose one, and can't continue to road it about if he wants to be lawful.

 

Or so I understand.

Edited September 12, 2008 by antarmike

[antarmike]

Mike I agree it is a play on the wording in the C&U regs, but they are silent regarding the use of the fuel a Light Locomotive is carrying, and in English Law this is what some people call a “loop hole”. No doubt it will be closed at some point"

I believe that this is untrue.

 

My book gives the definition of a light Loco as MV not constructed itself to carry a load other than equipment for propulsion, loose tools and loose equipment. UW exceeding 7,320 KG but not exceeding 11,690 KG. I cannot see that this description allows the classification of a UBRE fuel vehicle a Locomotive.

 

But the act says about fuel:- as an excempted article:-

(2) In subsection (1) above “excepted articles” means any of the following: water, fuel, accumulators and other equipment used for the purpose of propulsion, loose tools and loose equipment.

 

It specifically says the fuel carried must be for propulsion.

 

Unit Bulk Refuelling Equipment, is not for the propulsion of the Stalwart. That fuel is in its own fuel tank.

Edited September 12, 2008 by antarmike

[N.O.S.]

One plus point about air suspension is that you can dump the air to significantly lower the rear end, which makes for safer loading.

 

Oh sorry, am I on the wrong thread?

 

Go on, Special Vehicles (a taxation class) - you know it makes sense....

[antarmike]

And to further muddy the waters,

 

If at organised steam rallies, vintage vehicle shows, ex military vehicle gatherings, Road Traffic act applies:-

 

If a Stolly is illegal driving on its wheels on the road, can one legally be driven at a MV event, however you get it there?

 

If you were to have an accident, would your insurance be valid?

 

Perhaps this does need to be a topic in its own right?

[N.O.S.]

Another option is to buy a cheap day cab high power tractor unit (quite often good value) and get the chassis extended with a tag axle. to suit your exact requirements.

 

:whistle:

[Stormin]

Better option if buying a modern truck to do the job would be to go for a heavy rigid flat bed for now, with the option to add a trailer on later. That way in the future subject to funds and licensing you could transport two of your own vehicles, or yours and someone elses to share costs.

[antarmike]

Better option if buying a modern truck to do the job would be to go for a heavy rigid flat bed for now, with the option to add a trailer on later. That way in the future subject to funds and licensing you could transport two of your own vehicles, or yours and someone elses to share costs.

 

wont you run out of weight capacity?

 

If say you have 12 ton Scammell and 12 ton 432, you are at 24 tons. Add to this a rigid flat and drag what will your gross be?