Land Rover info sought

[Hair Bear]

Hi, on tractor forum a lwb Land Rover has been spotted living in France. Bought from army surplus (location unknown) it's thought to be a 1984 S3, 24v, ffr, civy reg B83 XST. Is there any way of finding a bit more history on it for it's owner with only it's civy reg?

Thanks.

[Nick Johns]

DVLA says its civvy first registered 2006  to trace it military history it would need its military reg number which will be stamped on the Military ID plate if its still on the vehicle

Edited April 7, 2023 by Nick Johns

[Hair Bear]

Thanks, I'll make further enquiries.

[ruxy]

With a build date of 1984  ,  then why should it have a civvy Pre-fix of  B  ?    IMHO  -  hardly possible. The MOD would only sell off a almost new Rover if it was accident damaged and classed as BER  (beyond economic repair).

The first-registration rules were changed early 1980's  IIRC  the change coinceded from old rules was 1982  end of Suffix  Y and Start of Prefix A  (01/8/1983)   - the old rules were that at first registration of any vehicle (inc. Ex-MOD) you received a Suffix letter that was same as a brand new car first registration.

[Minesweeper]

Well, I have an ex-Military 109 - Military  Reg was 73KB70. I bought it through a Dealer in 1996 who got its civ reg A765JPB for me. I always thought that it was a 1983 Land Rover and now ready to be "historic" but now I think that it could be a 1984 model - just not sure. It seems to be ex RAF Reg and said to be a Rapier Radar Vehicle - still not done more than 30,000 in its life.

[andym]

1 hour ago, Minesweeper said:

Well, I have an ex-Military 109 - Military  Reg was 73KB70. I bought it through a Dealer in 1996 who got its civ reg A765JPB for me. I always thought that it was a 1983 Land Rover and now ready to be "historic" but now I think that it could be a 1984 model - just not sure. It seems to be ex RAF Reg and said to be a Rapier Radar Vehicle - still not done more than 30,000 in its life.

Merlin agrees with you: "TRUCK GENERAL SERVICE 3/4T 4X4 TRACKER RADAR TOWING RAPIER ROVER", Date in Service 14/02/1984.

Andy

[fv1609]

Apart from the Rapier role, the Asset Code RB17264100 confirms that it was in RAF service.

[ruxy]

1 hour ago, Minesweeper said:

Well, I have an ex-Military 109 - Military  Reg was 73KB70. I bought it through a Dealer in 1996 who got its civ reg A765JPB for me. I always thought that it was a 1983 Land Rover and now ready to be "historic" but now I think that it could be a 1984 model - just not sure. It seems to be ex RAF Reg and said to be a Rapier Radar Vehicle - still not done more than 30,000 in its life.

One of the poblems is that  109" and 88£ CL  +  Lightweight could be on the same Contract No. but they would be on different Item numbers and production of the whole contract could stretch several months  +  The actual  VRM   would be pre-ordained  ,  ISTR only seeing a single  VRM with a comment that it was never built.

So - can quote two Lightweight KB I own. & one is a Suffix. Y and one is a Prefix A

23KB41  dis  09/02/1983

Contract  FVE21B/244  Item 20

First civvy Reg. 26/09/1997  -  as   NYA 322Y

(I am uncertain if Item 20   (batch of vehicles) was the last of contract  /244)

----------------

57KB73  dis  16/9/1983

Contract  FVE22A-225   Item 1  (most obviously the first batch of vehicles of  /225)

First civvy Reg.  May 2021  -  as  A549  XTL

======================================

I also have   Lightweight   92KA58   (Tri-service but RAF)      dis   14/01/83

Contract   FVE21B244  Item 7

First civvy Reg.  20/11/1997  -  as  LAG 703Y

 

So  -  you can see vehicles dis Jan & Feb. 1983  given  Suffix Y plates ,   it seems that the DVLA went by dis , I suppose their other alternative (as civvy Rovers)  - they would use the Solihull  Dispatch OUT date  - and that would be up to you to verify to their satisfaction.

 

First Registrations would be  DVLA Form   V55/5    also with MOD   Form 654  (Release Note)    - if this could not be produced - then you would receive a  Q plate and that would take some shifting.

 

[ruxy]

btw  -  with a Ex-MOD  Rover  ,  you can't describe it as a  " 1984 model "   , like it may be possible to do so with a civilian Land rover.  MOD Land Rovers were built according to Contract / Item No.   the actual Contract could be signed months/years prior & often extra Item Numbers (batches) were later bolt-ons to a Contract.  These Contracts could stretch over  31st Dec. / 01 Jan  ,  and in fact the MOD financial year end that ISTR was the change-point  date(s)  (that IIRC may not have been  01 August , so that VRM pair of letters may not have been identical to as the civvy world)  ?

[Hair Bear]

Here we go, 73 KC 25

[ruxy]

73KC25  -  the nearest I have to that is  LWT    44KC42   and it was dis  04/12/1984  -  so that one may have been into early 1985 build.

[Richard Farrant]

Here is the service record of 73KC25;

https://www.merlinarchive.uk/vehicle/73KC25

[Hair Bear]

Thank you, I'll pass the link on.

[Hair Bear]

Not having a military background myself my attempts to google the history info at the bottom I would translate as (and apologies if it's really obvious and I missed it)...

Ordnance depot Antwerp - would that be Emblem? I read the A/C as air conditioned but I doubt it!

21st Signals Regiment - still in Belgium maybe?

ADT - active duty training unit or auction house?

[fv1609]

I think you will find that A/C = Aircraft and ADT were the auctioneers who functioned primarily from Aston Down.

[Hair Bear]

Aircraft makes a lot more sense that air conditioned!

[Richard Farrant]

I would say the Eqpt A/C, means Equipment Account. Cannot see it having anything to do with aircraft. A/C is a known abbreviation for 'account'.

[fv1609]

You could be right Richard but I posted the only official reference to A/C that I could find and this was from MOD Acronyms and Abbreviations Dec 2008

 

 

[Sean N]

On 4/7/2023 at 12:02 PM, ruxy said:

With a build date of 1984  ,  then why should it have a civvy Pre-fix of  B  ?    IMHO  -  hardly possible ...

Ruxy, not really sure what you're saying here and subsequently - there doesn't seem to be any reason this wouldn't be possible, as your examples seem to confirm? Assuming a late 1984 DIS and 1990s or 2000s disposal (subsequently confirmed by the Merlin report) and a form 654, normal DVLA practice would have been to assign a B registration reflecting the vehicle's correct age.

Clive, the current (-ish) MoD acronyms and abbreviations document has no A/C listing, even for aircraft, but does have multiple AC listings including Accounting Code. I'm inclined to agree with Richard that it's an administrative rather than hardware acronym.

[fv1609]

Sean yes I'm also inclined to agree with Richard. Is that later document on line somewhere?

[Sean N]

Clive, I'm fairly sure it was publicly available - I'll see if I can find a link

[fv1609]

Ok thanks Sean would be interesting to see a later version. Although MOD abbreviations are often rather broad in their coverage that don't include whole ranges of abbreviations peculiar to particular arms of service. As you know often identical abbreviations crop up with quite diverse meanings and even within that arm of service can change with time that makes interpretation challenging. 

 

[ruxy]

4 hours ago, Sean N said:

Ruxy, not really sure what you're saying here and subsequently - there doesn't seem to be any reason this wouldn't be possible, as your examples seem to confirm? Assuming a late 1984 DIS and 1990s or 2000s disposal (subsequently confirmed by the Merlin report) and a form 654, normal DVLA practice would have been to assign a B registration reflecting the vehicle's correct age.

Clive, the current (-ish) MoD acronyms and abbreviations document has no A/C listing, even for aircraft, but does have multiple AC listings including Accounting Code. I'm inclined to agree with Richard that it's an administrative rather than hardware acronym.

The Form 654 - was always acceptable ?  probably I would suggest but that depends now on knowing that date ,,  was it actualy available at time of first registration  ?  (many  Form 654 get lost before first registration , often if not used on public highway  -  farm / estate usage.  Plucked for spares over a few years and then rescued by a restorer.  The best that can be scratched together is the dis and a actual receipt date at ordnance depot.  These date(s) often differ by days/weeks from the Solihull Dispatch OUT date & that would be the key to not having a Q Reg. imposed.  The difference in dates  between the Solihull Dispatch IN and OUT - can be considerable.  My understanding =  no F 654 , then the only acceptable is proof by chassis No. & Solihull Dispatch OUT date.