The Saddle Thread ( a rivet counter’s guide to the WD motorcycle saddles )

[welbike]

4 hours ago, rewdco said:

Next part of this survey will be the Mansfield and the Dunlop saddles. Please give me some time... 😁

Incredible work Jan! I tried to start somewhere, but was so disheartened, that I gave up! too much!

Cheers,

Lex

[Ron]

Fabulous stuff Jan. I keep going back over it. I notice quite a few Terry and Lycette covers without that top panel seam.

Ron

[rewdco]

The Dunlop saddle: Royal Enfield version (F.99/6B): 

 

We’ve seen that most of the pre-Universal saddle Royal Enfields (WD/C and WD/CO models) mostly used a Terry S.787 saddle. But the WD/C RAF contract C/12429 parts list also shows a Dunlop F.99 saddle as an alternative to the Terry. The Dunlop F.99 is a rubber saddle, riveted on a steel frame. 

 

Contemporary photographs with RAF WD/C motorcycles do confirm the use of this saddle. War time photographs also show this Dunlop F.99 saddle on some contract C/8136 (Army contract) motorcycles. It is rather strange that a Dunlop saddle was used by the Army, as in 1937 the M.E.E. had tested these Dunlops, but they found them “unsuitable for WD purposes”. 

 

Details:

The back-rail is made from a steel bar. Two brackets for the main springs are riveted (with one rivet) on the inside of the back-rail. A 1/4" wire frame connects the back-rail with a sheetmetal nose piece.  The top of this nose piece is curved and is 2” 1/4 wide. The saddle is 13" long, and is about 15” wide. It has a thick rubber cover and a “DUNLOP Made under Drilastic patents” brass badge.

Up to the Royal Enfield WD/CO: the first WD/CO contract parts list (C/11081) shows a Dunlop F.99 saddle and a Terry S.787, similar to the WD/C RAF contract C/12429. As with the RAF WD/C, the parts list shows knee grips for the pillion passenger. Contemporary WD/C pictures never show knee grips, which is logical, as the WD/C didn’t have a pillion seat. Some contemporary WD/CO pictures from contract C/11081 show Dunlop saddles, sometimes with and sometimes without the kneepads. 

 

[rewdco]

The Dunlop saddle: BSA C10 version (F.89/4S.P.): 

 

According to the document below the BSA lightweights either used a Terry saddle (model S.802), or a Dunlop (model F89). The Terry has been explained previously, let’s focus on the Dunlop saddle now. 

 

 

BSA KC10:

I have only found illustrations with the Dunlop saddle; see picture below.

BSA WC10:

The official works photograph of the military WC10 clearly shows a Terry S.802 saddle. But the only other war-time-WC10-picture-with-visible-saddle that I could find shows a Dunlop saddle, see picture below.

 

 

Details: 

Typical Dunlop construction: the back-rail is made from a steel bar. Two brackets for the main springs are riveted (with one rivet) on the inside of the back-rail. A 1/4" wire frame connects the back-rail with a sheetmetal nose piece.  The top of this nose piece is curved and is 2” 1/4 wide. The saddle is 11 1/2" long x 13” wide. It has a thick rubber cover and a “DUNLOP Made under Drilastic patents” brass badge.

[rewdco]

The Mansfield saddle: Royal Enfield WD/RE and James ML version (M43): 

 

The WD/RE pre-production test models were equipped with a lightweight Terry saddle, exact model unknown. These contract C/14775 bikes were based on the civilian Model RE40 and RB40 (Royal Baby), so I’m pretty sure that the (pre war) civilian bikes were also equipped with this Terry saddle. These Terry saddles have been explained before.

But the WD/RE production models (contracts S/1945, S/6602, S/7112), together with the James ML (contracts S/1972, S/5571, S/6603) were fitted with a Mansfield M43 saddle. It is possible that the fourth James ML contract (S/7113, produced in 1944) was using a Terry Universal saddle. The Universal saddles have been explained before.

Details:
The back-rail is made from a steel bar. The 9 mattress springs are attached to the top of this back-rail. Two brackets for the main springs are riveted on the outside of the back-rail. The 9 mattress springs all come together in a central spring collecting / anchor plate with a long lip that hooks in the nose of the saddle. The side rails are bent upwards (2 kinks) towards the nose of the saddle. The nose top is flat. There are no short mattress springs at the front of this saddle. The saddle is 11” long, and is about 12” wide. It has a Rexine cover and a “Mansfield - Made in England” brass badge. The cover has no banana shaped stitching at the back.

 

Rivet counters beware: the post war version of the Mansfield saddle has more mattress springs than the war time saddles (13 mattress springs instead of 9 according to the parts list, but I can only see 11 in the picture below). The post war saddle is also slightly taller.

[rewdco]

The Mansfield saddle: Royal Enfield WD/CO version (M40): 

 

Here are two other Royal Enfields with a Mansfield saddle. These are official Works pictures of a WD/CO from contract C/13869, and a WD/CO from RAF contract C/14219. The parts catalogue for contract C/13869 mentions a Terry saddle with kneepads, but the Works Photographs clearly shows a Mansfield with kneepads. This makes me think that sometimes they simply fitted “what was available”… The RAF contract parts list shows a Mansfield Universal saddle instead of an M40. 

 

Contract C/13869:

 

RAF contract C/14219:

 

Unfortunately the above photographs don’t show the frame of this Mansfield saddle. But I have found pictures of a saddle which is similar in construction to the Mansfield M.43 from the previous post (WD/RE and James ML), but a little bit sturdier. And in a 1943 (approx.) VAOS document with information on the WD saddles, I found this on the Mansfield M.40 (unfortunately no illustrations):

On the internet I found the pictures below. I believe that this is an M40 Mansfield saddle frame. Details (basically the same construction as the WD/RE / James ML Mansfield M.43, with a few differences):

The back-rail is made from a steel bar. The 13 mattress springs are attached to the top of this back-rail. The 13 mattress springs all come together in a central spring collection plate / anchor plate with a long lip that hooks in the nose of the saddle. The nose top is flat. There are no short mattress springs at the front of this saddle. The saddle is 12 1/2” long, and is about 13" wide. It has a Rexine cover and a “Mansfield - Made in England” brass badge (aluminium badge post war). The cover has a banana shaped stitching at the back. This saddle is provided with knee grips for the pillion passenger. 

 

Edited February 23 by rewdco

[rewdco]

The Mansfield saddle: Universal version: 

 

As explained before, the “Universal” saddles were introduced in late 1943, and were an attempt to standardise some of the parts and components that were used on every WD motorcycle (saddles, controls, electrics, …). But every saddle manufacturer had its own version of a "Universal" saddle... They all have one thing in common: at the nose of the saddle there were two pairs of holes. Either of these hole pairs could be used for the pivot bolt, or they could be used to fit a pair of make-specific brackets, so that the pivot hole could be placed in a specific position. At the back there were 3 pairs of holes for the rear springs. These 3 pairs of holes were made in an additional twisted steel bar for the Terry Universal and the Mansfield Universal, or in a pair of extra wide brackets for the Lycett Universal and the Brooks Universal. With these modifications in mind, the Universal saddles could be fitted to ANY make or model. 

The history of the Lycetts and Brooks companies is well documented on the internet, and we know that one had taken over the other. They both used similar Universal saddle frames (with slots for the hi-end elastic bands for the Lycett, and round holes for the “standard” coil mattress springs on the Brooks). 

Now I suspect that there must have happened something similar with Terrys and Mansfield. The Terry saddles all look very much the same, except for the Matchless Terry, which has this hooked spring collector plate, unlike all the other Terrys. However, the hooked spring collector plate is typical for the Mansfield saddles. A shameless copy or a collaboration…? I can’t find anything about these two companies on the internet, but I think both companies were somehow related to each other. Their Universal saddles looked very similar...

Details:

Typical Terry (!!!) construction: a steel frame, in which tension (coil) springs are used as a mattress. The back-rail is made from a flat steel bar, which has been bent in two planes. The 14 long mattress springs (there are 15 springs on a Terry Universal) are attached to the bottom of this back-rail, except the first and the last spring, which are attached to the top of the back-rail. There is a second flat steel bar back-rail, with 3 pairs of holes for the main springs. This second flat steel bar is twisted at both ends, and has a loop in the middle. By far the most noticeable feature of a Mansfield Universal is the fact that this bottom rail is attached to the inverted U shaped back rail with one single rivet on each side. The 14 mattress springs all come together in a central spring collecting plate. At the front of the collecting plate there are 7 short mattress springs. The nose top is flat and 2” 1/2 wide. The saddle is 13” long, and is about 14” wide. It has a Rexine cover with a banana shaped stitching at the back. The bottom corners of the cover have not been rounded. The Mansfield “Universal” does not have knee pads. The cover has a Mansfield badge (war time brass, post war aluminium).

 

 

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ladies and Gentlemen,

We’ve come at the end of this survey. I’d love to see your comments, and if you would have any additions, please share them with us. 

 

Regards,

Jan

Edited February 23 by rewdco

[Ron]

I'm still going back over it all Jan. 

It was always obvious that the WD KC10 was fitted with a Dunlop saddle and NiFe battery. But it was only after seeing these pictures of WD WC10's that convinced me that these also were fitted with a Dunlop and NiFe........Despite what the parts list states.  Ron

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Ron

[79x100]

Things are racing ahead, but to go back to the Terry saddle for Nortons which is the one that I know best, The two versions of Terry saddle are confusing. Unfortunately, there are no markings on either frames or covers to show which model they might be. Clearly one of those drawings in the VAOS book is incorrect.

 

I did wonder if one of the Terry saddles might be a Terry Big 4 replacement. Did later Big 4 have Terry saddles ? Not in the parts lists, as far as I can tell but if Lycett became unavailable as a replacement for the WD16H saddle due to rubber shortages, then presumably this also applied to the WD SWD Big 4 too, even though they were in decreasing usage from 1943 onwards. The component parts lists for the S801 and S203 saddles mention different main springs . The later arrival of padded kneegrips on the 16H would alter the cover number perhaps, but not the springs. The Big 4 of course had springs with a lower eye to accept a horizontal mount rather than the vertical studs of the WD16H. The 801 and 823 also had different covers and different centre plates which is even more of a puzzle ! Pre-war civilian Nortons had wider saddles from 1939...did the Big 4 also ?

 

The original Lycett for the pre-war Norton had part no. LT11 but the late VAOS refers to the MT11/B  - This could well just be the kneegrips added to the original LT11.

 

The VAOS is fairly categoric in stating that the S801 was fitted as alternative to the Lycett LT11 so I think it's fairly safe to assume that what is fitted to my 1939 which you have used to illustrate the thread is indeed the S801.

 

The odd kink in the Norton frame by the way seems to be simply to allow the oil tank cap to open.

[rewdco]

FYI, the "Wrights saddle: BSA version" and the "Terry saddle: Ariel version" have been amended. 

[matchlesswdg3]

[rewdco]

Aliquando et insanire iucundum est.  😊

Edited August 28, 2022 by rewdco

[Rob wd16h]

Another version of a Universal saddle for Matchless G3L MC's

Edited October 17, 2022 by Rob wd16h

[welbike]

Ok, some more on rubber saddles, very late war, or even postwar, there was this circulaire given out with metal brackets to use German saddles on British bikes!

A saddle like this was found last week in Germany, and they sent me pictures of it, the paper instructions I already had for some time, but now it makes sense.

Cheers,

Lex

 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by welbike
wrong picture

[rewdco]

FYI, the "Brooks saddle" and the "Lycett saddle: Velocette version" have been amended. 

Pictures have been added in the "Terry saddle: Matchless version" post.

And here's a new Excel sheet which summarises all the Lycett, Brooks, Terry, Mansfield and Wright(s) information.

Jan

saddles.xlsx

Edited January 7, 2023 by rewdco

[rewdco]

I've just found a Terry universal saddle on eBay.com . The saddle frame is easy to recognise. But it comes with a set of specific brackets, and I wonder for which bike these may be...? Definitely not BSA, Enfield, Matchless, Ariel. Maybe Norton, Triumph, James, ...?

[Ron]

Jan I have a Terry's universal on my M20 and it needs the triangal support brackets to move the spring mount forward. Seen also on the desert coloured bike. These must have been included as part of the "universal" kit.  Ron

[Doug80]

Brilliant bit of research and very informative. Thanks for your efforts.

does anyone know of a supplier of new saddle covers in the uk please?

thanks

Doug

[rewdco]

8 hours ago, Doug80 said:

Brilliant bit of research and very informative. Thanks for your efforts.

does anyone know of a supplier of new saddle covers in the uk please?

thanks

Doug

The Indian covers which are readily available are all made from soft, "warm" vinyl. Definitely a no-go for what we need. The original saddle covers were made from Rexine (which is called "Unobtanium" in Mendeljev's table). So if you want to become a millionaire and retire young, buy yourself an old Singer stitcher and start making good saddle covers! The material that was used for MGB hoods and tonneau covers is a very close match for Rexine, and please use real horsehair felt padding (3/8 thick). Don't use the easier to find coconut felt pad, as this will disintegrate quickly. 

To make a long story short: no, unfortunately good covers are very hard to come by.

Edited April 4, 2023 by rewdco

[rewdco]

By the way, I've just added two pictures in "The Brooks B182 saddle" post.

 

[Doug80]

Wright saddle photos. 

This Wright saddle, year and fitment unknown. Believed to be new old stock.

 

 

[rewdco]

Thanks for sharing!

[SimonBrown]

I thought it extremely unlikely I would ever contribute to this thread...but I realised I had some info that might be relevant.

The SS THISTLEGORM cargo contains 64 BSA M20 and 27 (possibly 30) Norton 16H motorcycles. They were loaded at Glasgow in June 1941 and the ship sunk in October of the same year.

I mapped the wreck in 3D in 2017 and returned last year for more survey work. If you look at the ortho mosaic of the lower deck cargo hold in the lower corner the 4th Norton from the lower left has its saddle in situ. Detail is good enough to count the springs:

Lower Cargo Deck

You do have to zoom right in...its 1mm per pixel resolution.

I don't know if this adds to the debate...but its a preserved example of an as-shipped motorbike saddle.

Regrettably the saddle is now missing from the 2022 survey and the conclusion is theft.

[rewdco]

Fantastic overview Simon! I've seen lots of Thistlegorm pictures, but non of these show the complete vessel. Thanks for sharing!

[79x100]

Thanks for posting that movement card, Jan...I've not seen it before...It pretty much suggests that the India Office Nortons on board had been embarked at Aden en route to Egypt with units of the Indian Army who were transferring there from the Aden Garrison during 1941.