The Saddle Thread ( a rivet counter’s guide to the WD motorcycle saddles )

[welbike]

Jan, very good stuff here, are you going to post the Flea/James saddle stuff here also??

Cheers,

Lex

[rewdco]

Sure Lex! But I’m still working on the Terry saddles…

[PaulJager]

On 7/8/2022 at 2:59 PM, Ron said:

The Royal Enfield models had a unique "D" shaped plate on the nose. Jan will elaborate! Your frame looks a similar shape to this WD/C original, if it's the correct size, the plate could be easily added. Ron

I think the frame I have is some after war production or home made/adjusted one. It is also a bit bent I just saw. Like Jan mentioned, it looks a bit off in comparison to all examples in this thread. The cover though, looks legit. Maybe for me it is best to replace it complete to keep it simple and turn the bike into a functional bike.

[rewdco]

The Terry saddle: Norton version (S.801 & S.823): 

 

We’ve seen previously that Norton primarily used Lycett saddles. But the Norton factory ledgers show that from late 1939 onwards, bikes were also being fitted (at random) with Terry saddles. And although the Norton parts Catalogues were still only listing the Lycett saddle, more and more Nortons left the Bracebridge factory with a Terry seat. Maybe Lycett couldn’t keep up with the production numbers… The 1943 (approx.) VAOS list gives us two Norton Terry saddles with different numbers: the S801 and the S823. The illustrations are identical, once again I don’t know what the difference between these two could have been.

 

Details:

Typical Terry construction: every Terry saddle is made with a steel frame, in which tension (coil) springs are used as a mattress. The back-rail is made from a flat steel bar, which has been bent in two planes. The 15 long mattress springs are attached to the bottom of this back-rail, except the first and the last spring, which are attached to the top of the back-rail. Two studs for the main springs are brazed over the bottom edge of the back-rail. The 15 mattress springs all come together in a central spring collecting plate. At the front of the collecting plate there are 7 short mattress springs. The nose top is 2 1/2 Inches wide, and is rounded. The side rails have a distinctive kink towards the end. The saddle is 12” long, and is about 15” wide. It has a Rexine cover and a “The TERRY Spring Seat Saddle - Made in England” brass badge. The cover has a banana shaped stitching at the back. There is a small notch at the back of the sides of the cover, the same shape as the kinks in the side rails.  

[rewdco]

The Terry saddle: BSA M20 version (S.707 & S.818): 

 

In the early BSA M20 Parts Lists there are two saddles: the Terry S.707 and the Lycett L115. In later parts lists there are three saddles: Terry S.818, Lycett M20B and Wrights W43/M. Presumably the choice between the different saddle manufacturers was influenced by what was available at the time…The Lycett has been explained, the Wrights will be explained later in this survey, let us now have a look at the BSA Terry saddles.  

 

 

I don’t have an illustration of the S.707, but I’m pretty sure that it was very similar to its successor, the S.818 (see illustration below). 

The motorcycles in the black & white pictures are early M20s, so they must have been fitted with a S.707. The colour photographs may show the model S.818 (Or are these also model S.707 saddles? I don’t know… The difference will be minimal.)

 

Details:

Typical Terry construction: every Terry saddle is made with a steel frame, in which tension (coil) springs are used as a mattress. The back-rail is made from a flat steel bar, which has been bent in two planes. The 15 long mattress springs are attached to the bottom of this back-rail, except the first and the last spring, which are attached to the top of the back-rail. Two L-shaped brackets are riveted (with 2 rivets each) on the inside of the back-rail. The 15 mattress springs all come together in a central spring collecting plate. At the front of the collecting plate there are 7 short mattress springs. The nose top is 2 1/2 Inches wide, and is rounded. The side rails are straight. The saddle is 12” long, and is about 15” wide. It has a Rexine cover and a “The TERRY Spring Seat Saddle - Made in England” brass badge. The cover has a banana shaped stitching at the back.   

Edited August 1, 2022 by rewdco

[rewdco]

The Terry saddle: BSA C10-C11-C12 version (S.802):

 

According to the document below the BSA lightweights either used a Terry saddle (model S.802), or a Dunlop (model F89). The Dunlop will be explained later, let’s focus on the Terry now. 

BSA KC10:

I have only found illustrations with the Dunlop saddle; see later in this survey.

 

BSA WC10:

The official works photograph of the military WC10 clearly shows a Terry S.802 saddle. (But the only other war-time-WC10-picture-with-visible-saddle that I could find shows a Dunlop saddle, see later in this survey).

 

Details: 

Typical Terry construction: the back-rail is made from a steel bar which has been bent in two planes. Unfortunately I have no details on the mattress spring construction. The two rather long L-shaped brackets for the main springs are riveted on the back-rail. The saddle has a Rexine cover and a “The TERRY Spring Seat Saddle - Made in England” brass badge. I don’t know the size of this saddle. I guess that it will have been smaller than the S.707 - S.818 version that was used on the BSA M20.

 

 

BSA WC11 (India Office version):

In the pictures below (prototype India Office WC11) the brackets for the rear springs are mounted laterally, they were riveted to the sides of the saddle frame. This may have been a prototype saddle as well.

 

 

But in the “production” official photographs we can see the same S.802 saddle as in the WC10 works photograph (with two rather long L-shaped brackets for the main springs which are riveted on the back-rail).

 

 

BSA C12 (Royal Navy version):

There was a photoshoot with some of the RN C12s close to Buckingham Palace, and these are about the only pictures that I could find of this model. In one of these pictures the saddle can be seen: clearly a Terry. But we can’t see any details. I presume this was also an S.802. 

 

[rewdco]

The Terry saddle: Matchless version (S.821): 

 

There is a Terry saddle in the (early) G3/L parts lists, and a better illustration can be found in the VAOS list. 

 

Details:

Not so typical Terry construction: every Terry saddle is made with a steel frame, in which tension (coil) springs are used as a mattress. The back-rail is made from a flat steel bar, which has been bent in two planes. But there are only 13 long mattress springs which are attached to the bottom of this back-rail, except the first and the last spring, which are attached to the top of the back-rail. Two L-shaped brackets are riveted (with 2 rivets each) on the outside of the back-rail. The front mounting brackets (fitted to the nose of the saddle with two rivets each) have a small kink inwards. The main springs have an eyelet that is bent downwards. The 13 mattress springs all come together in a central spring collecting plate, which hooks in the frame nose. There are no short mattress springs. The nose top is 2 1/2 Inches wide, and is rounded. The side rails are straight. The saddle is 13" long, and 14” wide.The saddle has a Rexine cover and a “The TERRY Spring Seat Saddle - Made in England” brass badge. The cover has a banana shaped stitching at the back.   

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by rewdco

[rewdco]

The Terry saddle: Ariel version (S.677 & S.827): 

 

For 1940, the WNG list quotes the Lycette aero spring. From 41 onward it shows either Lycette or Terry and for 44 it's the Universal. Unfortunately this is all the information that I have… According to the information below we have 15 mattress springs, and no nose springs. So it could  also have a central spring collecting plate which hooks in the frame nose, "à la Matchless S.821".

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by rewdco

[rewdco]

The Terry saddle: Velocette version: 

 

For as far as I could find out, Velocette never used a Terry saddle on their WD bikes. 

[rewdco]

The Terry saddle: Royal Enfield WD/C and WD/CO version (S.787): 

 

The Royal Enfield WD/C: all contracts used the Terry S.787. The WD/C RAF contract C/12429 parts list also shows a Dunlop F.99 saddle as an alternative to the Terry S.787. The Dunlop saddles will be explained later in this survey. 

 

 

Compared with other Terry saddles, the S.787 has a unique feature: it has a sheetmetal nose plate which was spot welded to the nose of the saddle. This nose plate lifts the cover over the petrol tank. 

 

Details:

Not so typical Terry construction: every Terry saddle is made with a steel frame, in which tension (coil) springs are used as a mattress. The back-rail is made from a flat steel bar, which has been bent in two planes. The 15 mattress springs all come together in a central spring collecting plate. At the front of the collecting plate there are 7 short mattress springs. The nose top is flat and wider than on all the other saddles (3” 5/16), with a spot welded  sheetmetal nose plate. The side rails are straight. The saddle is 12” 1/2 long, and is about 14” 3/4 wide. It has a Rexine cover and a “The TERRY Spring Seat Saddle - Made in England” brass badge. The cover has a banana shaped stitching at the back. 

Up to the Royal Enfield WD/CO: the first WD/CO contract parts list (C/11081) shows a Terry S.787 and a Dunlop F.99 saddle, similar to the WD/C RAF contract C/12429. As with the RAF WD/C, the parts list shows knee grips for the pillion passenger. Contemporary WD/C pictures didn’t show the use of these knee grips, which is logical, as the WD/C didn’t have a pillion seat. Some contemporary WD/CO pictures from contract C/11081 show Dunlop saddles with and without the kneepads. But most C/11081 pictures clearly show the Terry S.787, sometimes with, but more often without kneepads:

 

The next WD/CO contracts are sister contracts C/13869 (3000 bikes with Albion gearbox), and C/13870 (3000 bikes with Burman gearbox). And although the works photographs of the C/13869 bike shows a Mansfield saddle (probably an M40, see later in this survey), according to the parts lists, both sister contracts used the Terry S.787. Again with knee grips. 

 

Then we have the RAF contract C/14219. Although the official works photograph for this RAF contract C/14219 clearly shows a Mansfield (probably an M40, see later in this survey), according to the parts lists, this was the first Royal Enfield contract to use the Terry model S.831 “Universal” saddle (see further in this survey). 

Edited August 1, 2022 by rewdco

[rewdco]

The Terry saddle: Royal Enfield Model RE version: 

 

The WD/RE pre-production test models were equipped with a lightweight Terry saddle, exact model unknown. These contract C/14775 bikes were based on the civilian Model RE40 and RB40 (Royal Baby), so I’m pretty sure that the (pre war) civilian bikes were also equipped with this Terry saddle.

 

 

But the WD/RE production models (contracts S/1945, S/6602, S/7112), together with the James ML (contracts S/1972, S/5571, S/6603) were fitted with a Mansfield M43 saddle (see later in this survey).

[rewdco]

The Terry saddle: Universal version (S.831): 

 

The “Universal” saddles were introduced in late 1943, and were an attempt to standardise some of the parts and components that were used on every WD motorcycle (saddles, controls, electrics, …). There was a “Universal Terry” (which was based on the Terry S.707 and S.818, both BSA Terry saddles, see later), but there was also a  “Universal Lycett” (as explained previously), a “universal Brooks” (as explained previously) and a “universal Mansfield”. They all have one thing in common: at the nose of the saddle there were two pairs of holes. Either of these hole pairs could be used for the pivot bolt, or they could be used to fit a pair of make-specific brackets, so that the pivot hole could be placed in a specific position. At the back there were 3 pairs of holes for the rear springs. These 3 pairs of holes were made in an additional twisted steel bar for the Terry Universal and the Mansfield Universal, or in a pair of extra wide brackets for the Lycett Universal and the Brooks Universal. With these modifications in mind, the Universal saddles could be fitted to ANY make or model. 

 

 

Almost every 1944-onwards spare parts catalogue (for almost every motorcycle make) lists the following items (the scan below comes from a Royal Enfield parts list):

- a Terry universal saddle (which was called the S.831), 

- a cover with a Terry number, 

- a pair of rear springs, again with a Terry number, but these springs could also be used on any Universal saddle,

- a Terry Universal mattress assembly

 

 

Details:

Typical Terry construction: every Terry saddle is made with a steel frame, in which tension (coil) springs are used as a mattress. The back-rail is made from a flat steel bar, which has been bent in two planes. The 15 long mattress springs are attached to the bottom of this back-rail, except the first and the last spring, which are attached to the top of the back-rail. There is a second flat steel bar back-rail, with 3 pairs of holes for the main springs. This second flat steel bar is twisted at both ends, and has a loop in the middle. By far the most noticeable feature of a Terry Universal is the fact that this bottom rail is attached to the inverted U shaped back rail with two pairs of rivets (sometimes two pairs of spot welds). The 15 mattress springs all come together in a central spring collecting plate. At the front of the collecting plate there are 7 short mattress springs. The nose top is flat and 2” 1/2 wide. The saddle is 12” long, and is about 14” wide. It has a Rexine cover with a banana shaped stitching at the back. The bottom corners of the cover have not been rounded. The Terry S.831 “Universal” does not have knee pads. The cover has a Terry badge (war time brass, post war aluminium).

Next are some examples of the Terry Universal as used by several motorcycle manufacturers, from late 1943 onwards:

 

Edited February 23 by rewdco

[rewdco]

Royal Enfield WD/CO:

As can be seen in the parts catalogue and the picture below, Royal Enfield used an extension bracket for the front pivot, the rear springs were fitted directly to the twisted crossbar, in the outermost pair of holes. Longer studs at the bottom of the main springs compensated for the higher saddle position, due to the extension bracket. 

The parts list shows a saddle with single rivet attachment of the bottom rail, so this is a Mansfield Universal (!), which will be explained later.

But in this factory photograph the twin spot welds of a Terry Universal can clearly be seen, and we can just see the Terry badge as well.

Edited February 23 by rewdco

[rewdco]

Ariel W/NG:

Ariel used two Ariel-specific stepped brackets for the nose mounting. The rear springs were fitted directly to the twisted crossbar, in the outermost pair of holes.

 

[rewdco]

BSA M20:

BSA used two BSA-specific straight brackets for the nose mounting. The rear springs were fitted on a BSA-specific triangular plate that was bolted to the twisted crossbar, in the four outermost holes. The double rivets can clearly be seen in the pictures below.

Edited February 23 by rewdco

[rewdco]

Matchless G3/L:

Matchless used two Matchless-specific stepped brackets for the nose mounting. The rear springs were fitted directly to the twisted crossbar, in the middle holes. The bottom of the main springs are bolted to a pair of Matchless-specific L-shaped brackets that were then bolted to the frame.

[rewdco]

Norton 16H:

Norton also used Terry Universal saddles from late 1943 onwards. Unfortunately I couldn’t find any details, except this page from the spare parts list. It includes the Norton-specific mounting aids.

[rewdco]

Triumph 3HW:

Triumph also used Terry Universal saddles from late 1943 onwards. Unfortunately I couldn’t find any details, except this page from the spare parts list. It includes the Triumph-specific mounting aids.

[rewdco]

James ML:

James also used Terry Universal saddles from late 1943 onwards. Unfortunately I couldn’t find any details. The double spot welds can clearly be seen in the picture below.

Edited February 23 by rewdco

[rewdco]

Post war British Army saddle covers:

[rewdco]

The Terry saddle: Triumph TRW version: 

 

The post war Triumph TRW also used a specific Terry saddle:

 

 

Details:

Typical Terry construction: every Terry saddle is made with a steel frame, in which tension (coil) springs are used as a mattress. The back-rail is made from a flat steel bar, which has been bent in two planes. The 15 long mattress springs are attached to the bottom of this back-rail, except the first and the last spring, which are attached to the top of the back-rail. Two L-shaped brackets are riveted (with 2 rivets each) on the outside of the back-rail. The 15 mattress springs all come together in a central spring collecting plate. At the front of the collecting plate there are 7 short mattress springs. The nose top is 2 1/2 Inches wide, and is rounded. The side rails are straight. The saddle is 12” long.

 

[rewdco]

The Wrights saddle: BSA version: 

 

As mentioned before, BSA also used a Wright / Wrights saddle on the M20 (both names, with or without final "s", were used). But I found very little information on this BSA Wrights, apart from two scans from the BSA parts lists… 

 

Early parts list:

 

The parts list above shows that there were 15 mattress springs (which are identical to the BSA Terry saddle mattress springs), and 7 nose springs. This is quite similar to the BSA Terry design. The illustration below (from a pre war Wrights catalogue) also appears to show a back end "à la Terry".

Later parts list:

And according to a later BSA parts list there has also been a Wright universal, which was most probably identical to the Terry and the Mansfield universal.

Edited August 18, 2022 by rewdco

[rewdco]

Next part of this survey will be the Mansfield and the Dunlop saddles. Please give me some time... 😁

[PaulJager]

27 minutes ago, rewdco said:

Next part of this survey will be the Mansfield and the Dunlop saddles. Please give me some time... 😁

Incredible how much data you gathered Jan. It must be a mountain of work to sift through al the information and differences. Respect.

[welbike]

4 hours ago, rewdco said:

James ML:

James also used Terry Universal saddles from late 1943 onwards. Unfortunately I couldn’t find any details.

Jan,, I have some of these saddles, thought they were postwar! will take picures soon.

Lex