MINE LAYER TRAILER / PLOUGH

[attleej]

Dear All,

 

Please see pics of a main-layer trailer / plough that is lying near me in Petersfield, Hants.

Does anyone know what it is and what would have towed it?  I think that it is post war but no later than early seventies at the latest.

It is available for sale and open to offers.  I would expect the pricing would be realistic.

[fv1609]

Somewhere I have the User Handbook, Minelayer, Mechanical, Towed Equipment, Mk 1. Provisional Edition. July 1954, it was the subject of one of my Mystery Objects so there will be pictures on there.

[fv1609]

[Ashcollection]

Bedford RL with a crawler in front of it I believe.

just need a coat of paint on my one, then only the Bedford to fully restore! haha.

[Ashcollection]

for laying the Mk7 anti tank mines, replaced by the bar mine. massive saving in man power, crew of 10 on the Mk7 crew of 3 on the bar mine layer.

[wally dugan]

These were made by the company WILDALL  72 BR 44 was from contract 6/P&E/10381 and was in the series of  71 BR 88 to 72 BR 87  allocated for mine layer mechanical trailer

[radiomike7]

2 hours ago, fv1609 said:

Somewhere I have the User Handbook, Minelayer, Mechanical, Towed Equipment, Mk 1. Provisional Edition. July 1954, it was the subject of one of my Mystery Objects so there will be pictures on there.

Only 9 years ago Clive......

 

 

[Ashcollection]

haha but Clive has an amazing memory, he probably remembers just about every detail on every post over those 9 years, not to mention everything about Humbers!

[radiomike7]

Am I right in thinking that the fuses had some sort of delay built in that made them live some time after being buried?

Knowing the layout of the chassis on the RL I am amazed it stood up to being hauled around by a crawler.  The diagram in Clive's manual suggests a bridle was used rather than the front towing hook but even so,  the chassis is being subjected to forces it was never designed to take.

[Ashcollection]

No, there wasn't a delay, the first guy unscrewed the cap and ignitor, the second guy removed the clip to arm the fuse the third guy screwed the cap and fuse back on, then down the Shute at the front. yes I've always thought poor old Bedford. there was some sort of frame for the job though, never seen one though. want one if anyone has one!

[radiomike7]

2 hours ago, Ashcollection said:

No, there wasn't a delay, the first guy unscrewed the cap and ignitor, the second guy removed the clip to arm the fuse the third guy screwed the cap and fuse back on, then down the Shute at the front. yes I've always thought poor old Bedford. there was some sort of frame for the job though, never seen one though. want one if anyone has one!

So if the grader blade managed to trap a rock directly above the mine there was a good chance of an explosion?

[ploughman]

When I was introduced to this beast, the towing was carried out by a Bedford MK with a D6 on the front.

The MK being used mainly to carry the mine pallets.

The usual training field was by the Avon near Amesbury, usually inhabited by cows in the previous weeks, to be found during the night excercise of breaching the minefield by hand with the knitting needles.

Often wondered since then if the beast was developed from an agricultural machine possibly a Potato Harvester or was it the other way round?

Edited January 23, 2020 by ploughman

[Zero-Five-Two]

Like Ploughman, as a former RE I too have had experience of "The Beast" as it was generally known.  Training mines were lumps of concrete, with the fuse holder fixed into the top.

If I remember the training right, the fuses were 2 stage. Meaning they had to be hit twice before detonation. I guess that would make them reasonably safe from an accidental strike by the grader blade

[10FM68]

How nice to see that one still exists.  I can't remember much about them now, except that the minetrain was an impressive sight - the minelayer behind a 4 tonner being towed by a Caterpillar D6 Medium Crawler Tractor.  (The drawbar had a sheer pin in case the plough hit something solid enough to risk damaging the towing vehicle).   If the mines were being surface laid - ie without using the plough, then the D6 could be dispensed with. 

If I remember correctly the fuse left the factory as DI, or double impulse, meaning that it required to be driven over twice to detonate.  If single-impulse fuses were required - ie so that they would detonate after a single pressure (under the middle of a wheeled vehicle say) then the first pressure had to be taken up in , I think it was called a "cracker" - a cup held the fuse while a weight was drawn onto it manually with a long handle - rather like a large garlic press.  Not a pleasant job for the man doing it!  There was also a "tilt fuse" for the Mk 7 AT mine which included a long rod designed to detonate the mine if it was missed by the tracks of an approaching enemy tank by being brushed and snapped against the tank's belly plate.  The great advance with the barmine as far as exercises was concerned was that the exercise mines were made of sand-filled cardboard so, once laid, could remain in place, whereas the training mines for the Mk7 were made of concrete and had to be lifted once the exercise was completed.  

 

10 68

[Richard Farrant]

25 minutes ago, 10FM68 said:

 The great advance with the barmine as far as exercises was concerned was that the exercise mines were made of sand-filled cardboard so, once laid, could remain in place, whereas the training mines for the Mk7 were made of concrete and had to be lifted once the exercise was completed. 

I recall crates of these concrete mines in the RE Bay at the REME workshop where I worked. I remember asking what they were and was told they were for testing the minelayers. Never saw one and that was 1974, I believe the Barmine layer had been introduced by then as I had seen one in an agricultural machinery dealer's workshop a few years previous to that.

 

[Ashcollection]

I will have to try and make the effort to get my Bedford running, and hitch it up to the layer in the summer, probably been a long time since one has been behind an RL. 

[attleej]

Dear All,

 

The question is:  does anyone want to acquire this interesting machine or will it go to feed the \Chinese steel industry?

 

John

[Mark Ellis]

On 1/23/2020 at 4:34 PM, radiomike7 said:

So if the grader blade managed to trap a rock directly above the mine there was a good chance of an explosion?

Waking an old topic here.

When I arrived in Germany in 1980, the Mk 7 Beast was parked in Resources compound. I can't remember if it was still there in 83, but the ammo box that the tilt fuses came in was the right size to sit between MJ cab and body. Distinct reduction of tool bins on the batch of M types delivered in the early 80s compared to the early 70s order.

Being Land mines, they don't go off if you step on them and need the weight of a vehicle to go off. No point wasting all that explosive on one person - that's what Anti personnel mines are for.. 

We had cardboard Mk 7 practice mines during basic training, the cardboard being full of sand. The idea being that once it's ploughed in it stays there and improves the soil drainage.

In Germany we had cardboard practice bar mines, and the squadron laid pallets and pallets of those in the fields every year. The problem with the cardboard bar mines is they can bend and split open if not handled right - which is kind of messy.

We still had the concrete Mk 7 practice mines in Germany for the route denial training, with the short rope handles that took the skin off your knuckles.

You can see the plough between the wheels.

The dozer was to ensure the Beast's plough ripped the ground open - which would leave a truck's wheels spinning on some ground. I guess a 432 would replace the dozed in the 80s. The Bedford being swapped out when empty of mines. 

 

Can't find any photos of the cardboard Mk 7 or bar mines.

 

 

 

[10FM68]

On 1/23/2020 at 2:10 PM, Ashcollection said:

 yes I've always thought poor old Bedford. there was some sort of frame for the job though, never seen one though. want one if anyone has one!

The model of Bedford RL used by RE had, among other variations, a reinforced front bumper with fitted tow hitch.  A similar arrangement to that on the RL light recovery vehicle less the vice, obviously and there were light gurds fitted at each end of the shortened bumper (see photos which I can't credit as I don't know where they came from).  I can't remember now, but I think they were all w/winch as well.  They also had trays under the bed for stowing the tilt hoops.  The reinforced bumper enabled them to be used for push-launching bridges for example (to find the centre of gravity on a Bailey - push until it tips, then pull it back a foot)!

[Mark Ellis]

40 minutes ago, 10FM68 said:

The model of Bedford RL used by RE had, among other variations, a reinforced front bumper with fitted tow hitch.  A similar arrangement to that on the RL light recovery vehicle less the vice, obviously and there were light gurds fitted at each end of the shortened bumper (see photos which I can't credit as I don't know where they came from).  I can't remember now, but I think they were all w/winch as well.  They also had trays under the bed for stowing the tilt hoops.  The reinforced bumper enabled them to be used for push-launching bridges for example (to find the centre of gravity on a Bailey - push until it tips, then pull it back a foot)!

I wonder if the reinforced front tow hook was for the pontoon trailers.

The RE M type 4x4s had strengthened tow hitches for the MGB trailers.

Trucks are generally classed as too light for nosing bridges, and 432 or bigger tracked vehicles are usually used. 

In Canada, we grabbed this passing Chieftain ARV as we only had empty MKs

We had 11 Bedford per Field squadron in Germany, 1980. I think there were 6 winch and 5 GS. In 82 / 83 the 6 MK winch wagons were replaced with 6 MJ GS.

The MKs, being the 1970 batch had superstructure stowage, with feet on front of the bulkhead to stow the centre and rear hoop, and stowage bin underneath the body on the driver's side to stow the longitudinal, and extra tool bins that one is supposed to fold the canopy sheets small enough to fit in. The 1980s MJ/MK batch didn't have the superstructure stowage. Cheaper I guess.

My wagon in Canada, showing the superstructure stowage bin.

 

[Adrian Dwyer]

Plastic barmine.  Happy Sappering!

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Adrian Dwyer

[10FM68]

Trucks were used for nosing EWBB, though obviously not HGB as in your photo, but, UK-based field squadrons didn't have FV432s or CVR(T) in those days.  Nor, as far as I can recall, did we have them at 3TRRE where I was instructing in 79-80, though, there were, of course MCT etc, but I don't remember their being used by the troops in 55 & 57 Sqns who were doing their basic combat engineer training.  But, I think we were only teaching basic MGB which was boomed by hand.  But, it is a long time ago and, apart from occasionally looking through my REPB and doing some MGB calculations for amusement, I haven't seriously returned to combat engineering since 1982 in Iserlohn.

 

The stowage bin for the tilt rails was more obvious on an RL, but I can't find a photo of a Sapper RL anywhere on the web which shows it.  Plenty of photos or the RAF Police, however - were they the only ones to carry cameras n those days, or were they fond of being in front of the camera?  Ted, we need to know!

Edited November 23, 2023 by 10FM68

[Mark Ellis]

1980 - We lost an MGB into the gap at Hawley one night, because the S/Sgt got the centre of gravity wrong. Fun days.

 

Some of the RE RL tippers. Not sure if the tipper with fixed sides is as versatile as a Drop side flatbed

Cardboard bar mines,

[Adrian Dwyer]

The British fuze was a much more elegant design than the German option for the 1943 barmine. (FWAM: the German translation for which has slipped my mind but was a great phrase to slip into conversational German.)

[10FM68]

Here's a Sapper Bedford RLW carrying and towing LFB pontoons (photo attributed to A9 Models &c).  The load bed itself differs from the GS version with a strengthend & reinforced headboard and the spare wheel goes behind the cab as the superstructure bins are on the other side where the spare is normally housed.  Below is another photo, this time of an RL GS (so it appears) with the stowage bins.  It could be that some RCT units which used RLs for freqent open-bed stores carriage also had them.  And, finally, a photo of Iserlohn-based sappers using a 432 with barmine layer and (the now banned) Ranger anti-personnel mine scattering system.  Sadly, I can't attribute copyright of these photos which came from the internet.