Why did the British Army go for Gloss postwar

[Larry Hayward]

IMBS but why did the Bristish Army go for a gloss deep bronze green colour on most of its vehicles postwar right through the 1950's, 1960's and even in to the 1970's.

 

After all they must have learned something about camo in WW2 and the Soviet & other Warsaw Pact armies were quite a threat at the time?

[sirhc]

The shiny green was probably chosen to show off the vehicles, not hide them. We wanted the Russians to see what kit we had, and we wanted it to look smart. I'm sure had war broken out everything would have been repainted pretty quickly.

 

Chris

[Tony B]

Nope the answer is very easy and supplied to me by the MOD's paint expert. Easier to de-contaminate than the matt. The guy could make paint drying intresting, i once asked him what to put on a land rover Chassis, 2 cups of tea and half hour later he was still at it. He used to be in charge of painting London's bridges.

[Richard Farrant]

It was the layer upon layer of DBG that has made it possible for some of the old vehicles to survive. Had they used IRR, the survival rate would have been a lot less. Fro instance, Bedford TM trucks were painted from new in IRR and when I last worked on them, at least 11 years ago, whilst they were in service, the rust has coming though on the cab, due to no body in the paint, it was just like two coats of primer, so there is something to say about gloss DBG.

 

Also they looked smart then, even the armour and plant.

[Tony B]

I don't know where and when or if it still exists, but the MOD had there own finishes and packaging research unit. It was at Aquila, just outside Bromley Kent. Now a housing estate. Thats where I got the info. There were racks and racks of test pieces outside. Until I saw it I never realised how much stuff is lost through incorrect packing and storage. The chamber of horrors had pictures of entire engines ruined because they weren't packed correctly.

[Simon Daymond]

I've never used any, but my paint supplier told me that the proper army paint they used to supply (Masons, Derby) was gloss matted down with a special laquer. So it was gloss paint as far as sealed finish went, but matt in appearance. This guy sold paint his entire life, so I'm inclined to believe him, it's just I've never seen it anywhere, everyone I see paints matt paint to achieve a matt finish, but as we all know, the matt finish is a pain to keep clean, and does little to keep corrosion at bay, unlike gloss which repels water and dirt etc so much more effectively.

[REME 245]

I am still serving in the REME TA and the corrosion and crude welded patch repairs you see on some vehicles is amazing.

 

Health and safety does not help either as the days when you could stick a spray gun on the tyre compressor hose and blow a vehicle over are long gone. The chances of finding a decent brush and something to clean it with in the stores are now also remote.

 

I don't think in most units now any one bothers what their vehicles look like.

[N.O.S.]

I've never used any, but my paint supplier told me that the proper army paint they used to supply (Masons, Derby) was gloss matted down with a special laquer. So it was gloss paint as far as sealed finish went, but matt in appearance. This guy sold paint his entire life, so I'm inclined to believe him, it's just I've never seen it anywhere, everyone I see paints matt paint to achieve a matt finish, but as we all know, the matt finish is a pain to keep clean, and does little to keep corrosion at bay, unlike gloss which repels water and dirt etc so much more effectively.

 

 

Simon -

 

 

Could it have been simply clear lacquer finish with your normal matting agent :dunno: I've never thought to ask about that. Just re-reading this it sounds like they were using standard matting agent (see below?)

 

Since auto paint suppliers will mix in a matting agent to whatever degree of flatness you like, I go for not quite full matt which is a lot tougher than full matt, and makes it look as if you've just spent hours lavishing care on it with a WD40 soaked rag.... :whistle:

 

Another way told to me by a pro restorer is to base-coat paint with gloss or semi gloss for durability and finish coat with full matt for effect - if it fails or scrathes or a tank backs into you (or you back into a tank :shake:), you still have full green protection underneath.

[Tony B]

Allowing that the MOD has changed a lot of paint formulas to comply with the various regulations. There were two finishes in camo paint. the full Matt and an 'eggshell' finish. semi matt. the Full Matt had a greater IRR factor but was difficult to de contaminate. The semi matt was easier to clean but less IRR. Just for fun once I parked my Landy in full matt and a friends in semi in the car park of a MOD establishment and viewed them at night through the very good IR security cameras. The ordinary vehicles litterally glowed, the semi matt was vauge shape. Mine was extremly difficult to find, especially when parked in shadow. The things you do on night shift. Apparently Trimite now manufactuer and will mix for private use if asked.

[fv1609]

The officially stated reasons for the British Army to paint vehicles was:

 

Preservation

Camouflage

Morale

 

It is true than in WW2 all sorts of matt paints were used. But that was only a short term expedient. During postwar rearmament of the 1950s there were terrible problems with paint systems which taxed the ingenuity of the Inspectorate of Fighting Vehicles & the Chemical Inspectorate.

 

There was a shortage of raw materiels to make the paint & a lack of appreciation of the way systems of paint were to function ie primer, undercoat, top coats. The expectation was to have a vehicle paintwork last 3-4 years, gloss topcoat was the best way to achieve this. But even the commercial motor industry was having problems with their paints. I touched on these difficulties on pages 3 & 4 in this:

 

http://www.hmvf.co.uk/pdf/PAINTINGpart1.pdf

[andreadavide]

It should be noted that also the "orange Party" as we called at the time here, were using gloss paint on their vehicles.

Easier to clean, mantain and if a vehicle is properly stored can last indefinitely.

 

Also with modern warfare, if we exclude small commando and guerrilla actions or the mess curently going in Babylon , most of the wheeled things don't need to be camouflaged.

 

If it's needed a quick spray and the vehicles are set.

 

BTW giving how trigger happy are the current "word leader's" army and air force and given their complete air superiority it's actually better to be seen than to risk "friendly fire".....

 

Andrea

[Tony B]

My 101 ambulance was out in the Gulf in 1991 with 4th Armoured. I was talking to RAMC who had been out there, I mentioned the roof panel red cross. the reply was 'No mate, always kept it covered, the RAF knew what we were, The Septics thought it was a target'.

[Simon Daymond]

yes NOS I think it would have been a matting agent. Gloss paint and matt are different from my experience. Many a time I've painted something outside and the dew has caught it before it fully dried, the result was a matt finish, but it still beaded water very well, and rubbed down like gloss did. I am no expert at all on MOD finishes, as all my work, when painting, was geared towards a high gloss, mirror finish whenever possible, obviously worlds removed from the necessity of MOD painting.

I would say though that it would be more benficial to try to get this gloss piant/matt finish thing cracked, as matt simply does not last in my opinion, and it is ok having to reapply the matt regularly to keep the vehicle looking well, but you soon end up with a ton of paint on your vehicle.

Thankfully the militant will be going gloss, I'll just have to keep myself in check and remember what I'm painting and not go overboard! I used to think my work was good enough if I could read my watch , albeit backwards, clearly in the reflection. :-)

[N.O.S.]

I would say though that it would be more benficial to try to get this gloss piant/matt finish thing cracked

 

Simon - Are you suggesting there might be a better way to go than gloss paint matted with agent to a completely matt finish?

 

I don't think it seems as durable as gloss, but have only recently applied it so cannot offer any long-term experience.

[Sylvester]

After all this about paint.... Ireckon the reason they stopped painting the vehicles matt after the war was...... because...... No one was shootin at em anymore! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :wave: :banme:

[Tony B]

I have done the inside of horse trailers with polyurathane varnish, it's clear with gloss or matt finish. Stands horse kicking the blazes out of it.

[Tony B]

After all this about paint.... Ireckon the reason they stopped painting the vehicles matt after the war was...... because...... No one was shootin at em anymore! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :wave: :banme:

 

Someboddy pass 2 large bricks, and dump the mushrooms from the cook house. :roll:

[Simon Daymond]

NOS - matt paint isn't durable, it has a finish similar to primer or undercoat, and isn't really sealed to the weather, which is why muck etc sticks to it. Ok it paints well, and looks ok on dodgy panels for its' flat finish. But I think the thing to consider now, is that unlike in the Army etc, where you vehicle was a tool, now it's something you want to keep and show off for many years to come. As we all know a good coat of paint is not only decorative but keeps the weather at bay.

Gloss paint is always gloss whether shiny or not, to be a bit clearer; what I mean is that it is sealed even if the appearance is not shiny, and thus keeps the weather off better. On a gloss paint surface, whether shiny or not, the water beads off, whereas on a matt surface it doesn't, or hardly at all. The fact that the water doesn't bead, means that the surfaces stay wetter for longer, so more change of water ingress into the paint surface and surrounding joints.

I am sure there will be something still available to add to gloss paint to matt the finish down, failing that trial and error. Ih the past I once added cellulose thinners to Mason's coach enamel, by mistake, it painted on fine, but the two reacted and I only achieved a matt finish.

I know a paint place very well, the two guys that own it have only ever worked with paint, in fact it was these guys who started the whole matt paint discussion thing off, by suggesting to me that this went on. So I will ask them to investigate further for us.

[No Signals]

Just to chuck this one in. Water will always 'stand' in beads on a gloss surface whereas it will always run off a 'matted off' surface. I dont necessarily refer to 'matt' paint here, but a surface which has been cut back with some form of fine abrasive, i.e. wet or dry paper. It helps to break up the surface tension on a gossy surface which is what creates beading. If I'd the patience, which I haven't, I'd paint with a gloss paint to get the non porous chemical combination (which is inherent throughout the paint layer - not just on the surface) and then rub the shine off it with wet or dry to cut down the surface tension and give me a non shiney finish. I reckon this will give a good combination of water resistance and water run off. I.e. the vehicle will dry off quicker if water isnt standing in beads on it. I make this claim based on my experiences some years back of racing sailing dinghies, where mine was always faster than others in the same class which weren't 'cut back'. Most of the other (tosser) owners never worked out why and persistently filed complaints about me 'cheating' with sail size etc, but it was down to less water resistance. I never had more problems than the others with water penetration in to the wood hull. Much mirth at the time, but it was something I just remembered and might be worth considering if you are short of something to do on the long winter nights. ;-)

[N.O.S.]

Ih the past I once added cellulose thinners to Mason's coach enamel, by mistake, it painted on fine, but the two reacted and I only achieved a matt finish.

 

 

I once thinned ICI transport enamel by mistake with cellulose gunwash to paint a lorry chassis gloss black. It looked great, but did not dry. About 5 hrs later it looked like a giant giraffe with red oxide primner showing through the edges of big black blotches.....

 

I went in the next morning and it had blended back into a solid black finish, but took 3 days to dry. Result is an incredibly hard gloss finish, still going strong, but not to be recommended :shake:

[Simon Daymond]

going off topic slightly, I once tyre-blacked a bus, with gloss rather than tyre black (by mistake) took weeks to dry, looked beautiful but gave anyone who touched them black hands (which strangely dried almost instantly)

 

 

[Tony B]

I find black metal roof paint useful for the base of trailers and such things. Its cheap works and can applied with a parrafin gun.