Topdog Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 I need some advice. There is a Home Office directive that has arrived in Kent which states that the smoke discharger tubes fitted to Ferrets etc fall under the Firearms act. Either, they are section 1 firearms if it can be proved that they were only designed to fire smoke, or They are section 5 Firearms (prohibited weapons) if they were designed to fire fragmentation or noxious substance eg CS. This is more serious. This will apply to all owners of AFV's who have these items fitted. Solution 1. Have them removed and deactivated by a section 5 RFD and certified by a proof house. 2. Have them put onto a section 1 firearm certificate, which means that you cannot sell or have your vehicle in the possession of someone who does not have a section 1 Firearm certificate. 3. Put together a case to prove that they are an obsolete caliber and as such are an obsolete weapon. This will probably mean a court case for some poor soul. I need some help in researching this people. Please contact me on david @ sandersonsgarage . co . uk (remove spaces for it to work) Regards to you all Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REME 245 Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 The fact that they are illegal has always been the position, but if the Police are now nationally going to starting enforcing the law this could be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 They have alway been section5, never section1.. Where's this directive so we an all have a look :dunno: Smoke is classed as a noxious substance Obsolete caliber not an option.. there are still stocks of No.80's out there, don't forget the Ferret is still in service in other prts of the old, all other dischargers use current issue grenades.. Remember deac certs are not a legal requirement, check out the Home Office Guidance for Police... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 What about replicas? Or to make it even more complicated, replica tubes on an original base? They're going to need to really think this out carefully! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REME 245 Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 As we have discussed in a previous thread on this subject, my local Police Force did licence my dischargers as section one weapons. This may have been due to ignorance rather than the correct interpretation of the law. This was also about 10 years ago. As you say De-act Certs are not a legal requirement, but they are the legally accepted method of proving the appropriate work has been carried out. If you do not have a certificate and the Police disagree, you will have to argue your case in court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topdog Posted August 1, 2007 Author Share Posted August 1, 2007 They have alway been section5, never section1.. Where's this directive so we an all have a look :dunno: Smoke is classed as a noxious substance Obsolete caliber not an option.. there are still stocks of No.80's out there, don't forget the Ferret is still in service in other prts of the old, all other dischargers use current issue grenades.. Remember deac certs are not a legal requirement, check out the Home Office Guidance for Police... I will try to get a copy of the directive but it seems that Firearms liason officers in Kent have been stirred up and it is being taken forward. I have been told first hand that if it can be proved 'smoke only' it will go on section 1......otherwise section 5. (personally, section 1 would be easier for me) I take your point as to obsolete caliber and can you point me in the direction of deac certs not being a legal requirement?? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted August 1, 2007 Share Posted August 1, 2007 I will try to get a copy of the directive but it seems that Firearms liason officers in Kent have been stirred up and it is being taken forward. I have been told first hand that if it can be proved 'smoke only' it will go on section 1......otherwise section 5. (personally, section 1 would be easier for me) I take your point as to obsolete caliber and can you point me in the direction of deac certs not being a legal requirement?? Dave As No.80's are WP grenades I would say they certainly fall within section 5... Deac certs info.. not to hand at the mo but wade throught the Firearms act & all it's ammendmets & you will find it... But here's a bit of it 2.16 Section 8 of the 1988 Act is anevidential provision and does not preclude the possibility that a firearm which has been de-activated in some other manner may also have ceased to be a firearm within the meaning of the 1968 Act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topdog Posted August 2, 2007 Author Share Posted August 2, 2007 I take it then that if we remove wiring and all firing mechanism then that could suffice if all we are left with is a tube.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Maybe, they may insit that the tubes are cut, holes drilled or filled in some way, but they totally miss the point. The tubes are just bits of tube, any machine shop could knock up new ones very quickly on a lathe. It really is a big fuss about nothing. How many people have been injured in the last 20 years by a smoke grenade fired from a privatley owned military vehicle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 I take it then that if we remove wiring and all firing mechanism then that could suffice if all we are left with is a tube.... NO as that's no different to just removing the firing pin from a gun... you will also have to put 3" slots along the length of the tubes & cross pin them which is the approved deac standard... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienFTM Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 As No.80's are WP grenades I would say they certainly fall within section 5... I was going to bring up that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyroo Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 NO as that's no different to just removing the firing pin from a gun... you will also have to put 3" slots along the length of the tubes & cross pin them which is the approved deac standard... How about welding a solid slug of steel in them? They efectivly become solid. A slot can be welded up and a pin can be removed. As Chris says, they are just tubes, anyone with a tiny knowlage and a lathe can soon knock a set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 How about welding a solid slug of steel in them? They efectivly become solid. A slot can be welded up and a pin can be removed. As Chris says, they are just tubes, anyone with a tiny knowlage and a lathe can soon knock a set up. Yep if it's done correctly.. as long as it can't be reactivated using any special skills or household tools as described in the regs... I recently asked an armourer the definition of household tools, he said anything that is available in a DIY store... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 How about filling them with resin or concrete? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 How about filling them with resin or concrete? Very easily removed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Seems to me this is a bit of a catch-22 area given the nature of smoke dischargers.. Whatever you do to disable them any halfway competent engineer could easily repair and return to functioning order........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Seems to me this is a bit of a catch-22 area given the nature of smoke dischargers.. Whatever you do to disable them any halfway competent engineer could easily repair and return to functioning order........... That's where the words "Special skills" comes in, if it takes an engineer to re-activate them then they were done properly, if it takes Joe Blogs with his potato masher then they weren't.. There's always another option Neil... let your Val have a go at them.. I'm sure she would put them beyond use ;-) :whistle: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtistsRifles Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 She'd take the whole damn vehicle out - NOT a good idea.... :shake: :shake: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougiebarder Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 How easy is it to get the smoke grenades? I would have thought that the discharger isn't really necessary to set them off? (pull pin and throw). If I've got the right end of the stick, the Canucks have the right idea, They restrict the ammunition for anything over about 20mm, not the discharger. so they have no problems owning anything over 20mm. (who's ever tried to rob a bank with an artillery piece). It's just a pity we'll never get a politician with enough common sense to think of anything like that :banghead: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmite!! Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 How easy is it to get the smoke grenades? I would have thought that the discharger isn't really necessary to set them off? (pull pin and throw). You wouldn't really want to throw a No.80 WP Grenade & there's no pin to pul on modern ones.. Modern ones are completely electrically fired... WP No.80's are electrically launched & were placed in the tubes with squibs, once the grenades with the spoons were safely in the tubes the pins were removed ready for firing.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Here's a military training poster which gives an idea of how they work: http://www.sirhc.co.uk/Smoke.jpg'>http://www.sirhc.co.uk/Smoke.jpg'>http://www.sirhc.co.uk/smoke.jpg[/img] To see this in more detail: http://www.sirhc.co.uk/Smoke.jpg Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REME 245 Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 The option on another forum is that smoke dischargers should be treated for deactivation purposes like a mortar. This would mean the firing pin or contact in this case should be cut off, and secondly two pins should be inserted at 45 degrees and welded in to stop a canister being chambered. The exterior weld can then be ground/filed to the original tube profile. This is a simple job and if any one is worried about being stopped, I would recommend carrying out this work. At least it demonstrates you have taken reasonable precautions to prevent their future use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topdog Posted August 6, 2007 Author Share Posted August 6, 2007 I am hoping to get i writing what Kent firearms require us to do. Word of mouth is that will not be required to carry out full deactivation and certification but that is only one persons opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 Trouble is putting anything else on as a 'smoke discharger' you are going to fall foul of the replica laws. this is really a waste of time as the use of any object' With the Intention' of convincing someone it is a firearm is an offence already!! De ac by proof house is the way as a firearm deactivated is NOT a replica. God help us, haven't the Police got enough to worry about? :banghead: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 Trouble is putting anything else on as a 'smoke discharger' you are going to fall foul of the replica laws. this is really a waste of time as the use of any object' With the Intention' of convincing someone it is a firearm is an offence already!! In my eyes, anything that is a "replica", is something that is an exact copy of an object, in all ways. Whereas, if one of these dischargers were to be cast as a lump in alloy for instance, with no hollow tube, then it would be a dummy and be of no use or threat at all. In fact a dummy would be be just as inert as a deactivated one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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