Over-restoration?

[matchlesswdg3]

While on the hunt for a Defender 90, I got talking to the owner of a well used Snatch Land Rover. Now I know a bit about Landies but really from the civvy aspect and it was interesting to get a guided tour of this Snatch. To the layman, it looked like everything was worn, dinged, dented and frayed but the owner was able to point out, for example, that the bad damage to the door liners was due to the way an SA 80 was stuffed into the door inner for ready use. Similarly, lots of other dings and scratches signified how the vehicle was used. It made me think, because if I had bought this vehicle, I would probably have just fixed it up with no knowledge of what the defects signified, thus losing its history. I wonder how much value in MVs has been lost by enthusiastic over-restoration? Clearly some vehicles just have to have a nuts and bolts bare metal resto' if they are too far gone, but maybe a lot of others have been made into just another shiny vehicle due to ignorance?

[skeggy]

Very good point. It makes you wonder how much in service "life" has been lost due to over restoration.

[Corbs]

This surely marks the difference between 'restoration' and 'preservation'?

 

There are plenty of vehicles, steam locomotives etc that are in a preserved but not running state, as to restore it would essentially destroy the item.

[Tony B]

The old argument! My WC54 has body work panel repairs all over it, probabaly from her 1952 rebuild. Would I repalce them? No, they are her fingerprint.

[fesm_ndt]

A couple of interesting Jeep modifications on this page http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/category/military-vehicles/page/9/

 

I doubt you would get someone to restore one that way

 

The restoration/preserve debate has been going on for ages.

[gas 44]

I think its a fine line between the two.

In all cases the vehicle needs to be safe to drive, my feeling is that SOME not all of those owner's who love that "in service,patina,it tells a story look" really have no idea as to how safe it really is. I really wish I had taken some pictures of a jeep I saw at a local show last week, it was dismal to say the least.

Before I get bombed I do stress it is only SOME owner's that need to "look in the mirror"

[Tony B]

I totally agree, if the vehicle isn't roadworthy, then it's nothing more than a museum piece. People might freack out that I have 'Modern' NATO tyres on one truck and truck road tyres on the other. My answer 'Try driving NDC on tarmac in the rain' To show the vehicle, you have to SAFLEY get there and home..

[matchlesswdg3]

The point I was making was about the danger of well-meaning over-restoration due to ignorance of what was being restored. If you intend to drive a vehicle it has to be safe of course, that is a given. Also, it is of course entirely your choice how you restore your vehicle, but hopefully it is on the basis that an informed choice is made. Back to the example I gave, I would have likely looked at the inner door panel of this Snatch and assumed that someone had either indulged in idle vandalism or a dog had been left inside to chew its way out! On that basis,I would likely have sourced a new panel and chucked away the evidence that the vehicle had been in active service and bore the marks of the way the SA80 was mounted and used.

[Tony B]

Get an airsoft SA80 for about £50, and prove it!

[matchlesswdg3]

Get an airsoft SA80 for about £50, and prove it!

Or ask someone who actually used the vehicle in question in service. Usually provides fascinating insight.

[79x100]

The answer lies with research. Restoring any vehicle and certainly a military vehicle is a historical exercise and to be honest, it's never been easier but I never cease to be amazed by those who post on internet forums having commenced a restoration without even a spare parts list or instruction manual, let alone looking for every possible photograph or technical document...and even with WW2 vehicles, it' s still possible to talk with those who used them...with post-war vehicles there is no excuse.

[Tony B]

Or ask someone who actually used the vehicle in question in service. Usually provides fascinating insight.

 

Or when someone approachs you at a show. I've heard all sorts of stories.

[arcot1751]

During my time in HM Forces (Royal Artillery) I drove hundreds of vehicles from tracked to Lightweights, all showed signs of use but none were unroadworthy. First parade servicing involved a visual inspection of tyres, lights washers, wipers etc. All vehicles had dents, scrapes, numerous layers of paint and subtle mods to make life easier for the person actually using them. However we the drivers, like ALL road users were responsible for the vehicle being roadworthy and safe to be on the road, if you weren't happy you reported it and the vehicle was VOR until rectified. In the military scene we see increasing amounts of shiny as new vehicles which bear little resemblance to those vehicles when actually in service. It is all down to the individual, they are the owners after all but it sometimes resembles a classic car show out there.

By all means keep it roadworthy and preserve the vehicle but to erase its history to the point of polished wheel nuts is not exactly portraying them as they were. I would much rather see a vehicle showing its past than a sanitised version that bears no resemblance to reality. Each to their own as they say

[T corbin]

Having restored a selection of military vehicles over the past 30 years . Their are two ways to go . Conservation or compete rebuild .We have the Albion the IWM DUXFORD .Witch has only had a coat of paint to take to Normandy back in 1979 . Apart from that it is as it left the army . But others like the 2 gtb & international all had a very hard life after WW11 all required total strip down . All have been striped down to bear bones then shot blasted then rebuilt .Finding all the problems on the way .They all looked shiny when they left the workshop . But after a visit to War& peace show with mud & dust the look ok . Then back at workshop they get a wash & a WD 40 spray & wipe (WOT 1 CRASH TENDER . WOT 3 TRACTOR. GTB . GTB BOMB SERVICE . BOMB TRAILER . INTERNATIONL M-2-4 . FORD GPW . BEDFORD QL REFULER . ) All striped an rebuilt ( ALBION CX 22 . DODGE WC 57 ) As came out of service T CORBIN

[fv1609]

Yes I know you can do what you like with your own vehicle & embellish it any way you like & it is nobody else's business etc etc.

 

But there are many who go to a great deal of trouble in presenting their vehicle in what they feel is a genuine in-service appearance. It amuses me to see the efforts that have been put into removing most or all of the existing paintwork. Particularly with IRR paints the instructions were NOT to remove existing paint if it was reasonably sound.

 

IRR paint system depends not just on the top coat but the layer underneath, so existing paint should not be stripped off. Areas where it is failing need to be prepared and two coats of IRR paint should be applied.

 

Apart from the unnecessary man-hours needed to remove paint, in recent times there have been ecological influences on the disposal of paint mechanically or chemically removed & the toxic solvents in those.

 

If "it amuses me" sounds rather patronising I should mention that some 30 years ago I stripped all 7 layers of IRR paint off a vehicle & felt mightily pleased with myself (at the time).

 

PS As I am dyslexic it takes me some time to sort out a legible post, during this time I now see there is post immediately above mine. It might read that looks as if arguing with the above poster. My post was principally about IRR paints & clearly not applicable to wartime vehicles.

Edited September 14, 2015 by fv1609

[Tony B]

A bit of dust and mud never hurt asny MV's apperance. But if they were used 'At Home' on an airfeild for instance there would be a bit more cosmetic care and maitanience. So it depends on what your personal senario is. What does amuse me is when you say to a classic car person 'How far have you driven?' and they throw fits, what take thier precious baby on the ROAD! Like the Churchill Garage ad. What's the fun of having a toy if you don't play with it? Though my WC54 Katy is a Lady and gets cleaned and driven sedatley. My WC51 Ruby , is a hodlum! I and others have a lot of fun in her.

[ploughman]

It amuses me to see the efforts that have been put into removing most or all of the existing paintwork. Particularly with IRR paints the instructions were NOT to remove existing paint if it was reasonably sound.

 

IRR paint system depends not just on the top coat but the layer underneath, so existing paint should not be stripped off. Areas where it is failing need to be prepared and two coats of IRR paint should be applied.

 

Apart from the unnecessary man-hours needed to remove paint, in recent times there have been ecological influences on the disposal of paint mechanically or chemically removed & the toxic solvents in those.

 

If "it amuses me" sounds rather patronising I should mention that some 30 years ago I stripped all 7 layers of IRR paint off a vehicle & felt mightily pleased with myself (at the time).

 

Clive

On our units visits to RAF Bruggen and taking our heavy plant out of long term storage the opportunity was taken to put these vehicles through the RAF Paint Bay.

There the vehicles were totally stripped back to bare metal using Nitromors (I Know not nowadays) then the painters got to work with a spray application of IRR Paint.

 

So what is right and what is wrong?

[fv1609]

Bryan that is interesting I don't know whether that was a local policy or an RAF one, but preservation was clearly their priority. What I list below are all Army although the last one is a JSP.

 

Materiel Regulations for the Army. Volume 2. Vehicles & Technical Equipment. Pamphlet No.3. Painting of Army Vehicles, Aircraft & Equipment. 1980

 

 

 

In vehicle depots the emphasis was preservation by effective de-rusting then painting as required. The effectiveness on an IRR paint used would deteriorate with time & that would be determined by the receiving unit on issue. The only painting done at that stage by the depot would be the obliteration of vehicle depot markings. (Enthusiasts are often delighted to find dates & various depot codes under the old paintwork of their vehicles. These are often reproduced on their show vehicle not realising that once issued to a unit they would no longer be visible)

 

Manual of Army Ordnance Services. Volume 1. Pamphlet No.6. Vehicle Depots. 1983

 

 

Paint systems had to change & environmental issues dictated less volatility & an effective temporary coverage that could be easily removed with the minimum of environmental impact.

 

[timbo]

Clive

 

There is no mention there of the painting technique which had been applied to my Spartan when I first got it (ex CATC BG Warminster) - namely driving through several deep muddy puddles then slapping paint on with a yard broom! Now stripped and repainted, although I have decided to just patch paint my Sabre, and will probably leave the 'starter motor iffy' graffiti on the front bin...

 

Tim

[fv1609]

will probably leave the 'starter motor iffy' graffiti on the front bin...Tim

 

Oh yes leave that on all part of the history Tim.

 

On my TUM(HS) there is a hand written notice inside:

"THIS IS NOT A MOBILE WASTE DISPOSAL UNIT. IF YOU USE IT TAKE YOUR RUBBISH OUT"

 

I can't repeat what was written in various places inside my first LightWeight, they were much too rude!

[ploughman]

Bryan that is interesting I don't know whether that was a local policy or an RAF one, but preservation was clearly their priority. What I list below are all Army although the last one is a JSP.

 

Materiel Regulations for the Army. Volume 2. Vehicles & Technical Equipment. Pamphlet No.3. Painting of Army Vehicles, Aircraft & Equipment. 1980

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]107905[/ATTACH]

 

 

In vehicle depots the emphasis was preservation by effective de-rusting then painting as required. The effectiveness on an IRR paint used would deteriorate with time & that would be determined by the receiving unit on issue. The only painting done at that stage by the depot would be the obliteration of vehicle depot markings. (Enthusiasts are often delighted to find dates & various depot codes under the old paintwork of their vehicles. These are often reproduced on their show vehicle not realising that once issued to a unit they would no longer be visible)

 

Manual of Army Ordnance Services. Volume 1. Pamphlet No.6. Vehicle Depots. 1983

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]107903[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]107904[/ATTACH]

 

Paint systems had to change & environmental issues dictated less volatility & an effective temporary coverage that could be easily removed with the minimum of environmental impact.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]107902[/ATTACH]

 

The vehicle I definately remember going through the paint bay was a Michigan 275 Bucket loader. It only just fitted in the paint bay.

The reason was probably due to more than 75% repaint required however in our case with being an ADR unit and vehicles in long term storage then a lower percentage may have applied.

[fv1609]

Bryan what sort of date would that have been I wonder?

[matchlesswdg3]

Thanks for all the comments, guys. I think these are useful for anyone just starting with their first MV, so that rather than immediately getting out the paint stripper, and filling in holes and dings, a bit of research is carried out. I am just sorting out my L/R and it's really satisfying to pore over old photos, find what you think might be the correct bit of kit and then finding the mounting bracket holes line up exactly with those mysterious holes in the floor and bulkhead that you thought were just going to let in water and needed plugging up! The paintwork is a bit scruffy in places, but it has a desert sand colour layer signifying it's time in Iraq, so that is staying. Likewise, the dashboard has been painted several times along with the metalwork and looks really scruffy, but I assume that was done because it was an air drop vehicle and likely would not have had its windscreen erected for much of the time. I am still trying to work out why each of the wheel arch eyebrows has five 8mm holes drilled along their outer edge! If anyone knows, do tell me! Camo skirts?

[Tony B]

Could be for wheel skirts. My Artic FFR had canvas flaps that rolled down over each wheel and the screen.

[ploughman]

Bryan what sort of date would that have been I wonder?

April - May 1982