question Registering a military vehicle .Simple explanation please

[andy1960]

Hi all.....I am being a bit thick and have trouble sifting through all the DVLA and NOVA stuff so can any one give a simple explanation.....For example I buy a vehicle say a Ford or Willys Jeep with no v5 documentation or history that's been sat in a farm barn in the uk for years and all I have is a receipt form the vendor etc whats the proceedeure for registering it with DVLA and because its " an import " from abroad ,may be 70 years ago years ago ( !) whats the Customs situation? Many Thanks Andy B

[Tony B]

I had the same terror a couple of years ago with Katy my WC54. The answer is, most of the questions on the registration form such as model compliance number etc, don't count! VAT, well I brought mine into Portsmouth was asked how much I paid? Nothing I'd inhertid her. When did the person die?, just over a year and a day, which is probate in Jersey. Oh fine it's personal property, have a safe journey. The MVT or IMPS can give you an age certification certificate. I don't know what the procedure is now that pre 1960 are MOT exempt , but you may need an intial MOT test, just to prove the vehicle actually exists. I would think the VAT problem is was the seller VAT registered?

[Nick Johns]

HMRC statement regarding registering vehicles for NOVA scheme for vehicles with no paperwork already in UK prior to start of NOVA scheme, there is no duty or VAT charged.

http://fbhvc.co.uk/about-us/news/_article/22/hmrc-issues-guidelines-for-registering-restoration-projects-imported-prior-to-nova/

DVLA will require the vehicle to be verified to confirm its year of manufacture, no MOT is required now

Edited April 19, 2015 by Nick Johns

[N.O.S.]

Thank you Nick for that most helpful link, I should be able to sleep a bit better from now on!!! :thumbsup:

 

Tony

[Brooky]

Mainly as above

In my experience a NOVA declaration can be made even if the vehicle has been here for years. There will be no duty to pay but there will be a marker on a shared database against the chassis number that the DVLA will need to register the vehicle

No marker no registration

You will need a form v55/5 from the DVLA for the first registration, these have to be ordered from the DVLA and can take some time to be delivered

(They cant be downloaded as they a 3 part no carbon required form)

 

You will need a dating letter from a club who is recognised by the DVLA as having expertise in that type of vehicle (there is a downloadable list on the DVLA website) The clubs are as said the MVT, I beleive IMPS and the Norfolk Military Vehicle group are also listed

 

The club will arrange an inspection (tio verify chassis number make and so on) and then if all is OK will issue a dating letter that you will send to the DVLA (along with some other documentation and the V55/5,) to get the vehicle registered

As has been said if the vehicle is pre 1960 then it will be exempt MOT

Note NO MOT is required at first registration................the vehicle is exempt

 

If the vehicle has previously been registered (on release from the services) but you dont have a V5 then the process can become a little more difficult

First thin to do is to run a vehicle enquiry (DVLA website) to see whether the original registration number was transferred onto the central database, if it was then happy days!! All you need to do then is apply for a new V5

If not then it is the V765 scheme

This means you have to complete a V765 (this time downloadable from the DVLA) and provide evidence to the club that the registration number claimed is the number for the vehicle

This evidence is quite strict and the thing you are looking for will be an extract from the original county registration ledger, old MOTs and such like. The club will then countersign the V765 and forward it to the DVLA

Hope that helps!!

[N.O.S.]

….but there will be a marker on a shared database against the chassis number that the DVLA will need to register the vehicle

No marker no registration…...

 

I have a couple of old trucks that I am pretty certain will have no marker on any database, shared or not. This is where I lose the plot - how can I then register a vehicle for which I have a chassis number but for which no records or database survives, i.e. no marker?

 

Or have I totally misinterpreted your post? :blush:

[Brooky]

I have a couple of old trucks that I am pretty certain will have no marker on any database, shared or not. This is where I lose the plot - how can I then register a vehicle for which I have a chassis number but for which no records or database survives, i.e. no marker?

 

Or have I totally misinterpreted your post? :blush:

 

The DVLA will check with the HMRC that a declaration under NOVA has been made for that particular vehicle/chassis number

When the declaration is made HMRC place that number on the shared database (hence my expression "marker")

If the declaration has been made the DVLA carry on, if not they kick the application back to the applicant

 

Sorry for the confusion

[N.O.S.]

Ah, so it is a cross-reference with HMRC. Thanks very much for clarifying that, Brooky!

 

Tony :sweat:

[w896andy]

If I can just add to the above, I’ve just done it on a GMC 353 which has been in the country for a long time not registered. The problem is that if it was made outside of the UK then it triggers the ‘you must have just imported it and VAT is due’ process and a NOVA is needed without exception (I tried, no NOVA - no registration).

 

Vehicles not registered previously but that have been in the country for a long time fall foul of this so it’s something many of us will have to get used too. The only process HMRC have and the forms used say you are importing the vehicle now.

 

Complete in this order.

 

Get it verified, I did mine with the MVT, this gives you a verification letter.

 

Apply for a NOVA using form: VAT NOVA1. Google it and you can download one.

Send it to:

HMRC

National Unit for Personal Transport

Building 22, Priory Court

St John’s Road

Dover

CT17 9SH

 

The VAT NOVA1 form is written as if you are importing the vehicle now, it’s the only option and is the one they sent me and told me to use when I contacted them, their process doesn’t allow for anything else.

 

Include any documents you have to confirm its been in the UK since before NOVA started, I sent the MVT Verification, purchase receipt, photos of the chassis number and a letter explaining that I bought the vehicle in the UK, it’s been here most likely since 1944 and confirming I want to register the vehicle but can’t until I get a NOVA registration. As long as they are happy that it’s genuine then no problem.

 

Two weeks later I got back a NOVA registration letter with number and a confirmation that no VAT is due. This number is logged with as has been said above their system so the DVLA can see it.

 

Then apply to the DVLA using a V55/5 filling in as many boxes as you can (only about 25% of them apply). Include insurance, pictures of the chassis number and vehicle, the MVT Verification letter, a cheque for £55 to register it and a V112G if it’s a truck over 3.5 tons which exempts you from plating on a pre-1960 vehicle.

 

If you send paperwork to the DVLA first they will reject it as they will check the NOVA registration on their system. They will also now despite their guidelines saying different reject it if you don’t have a recognised verification letter.

 

Easy, when you know how……not, it took me 4 months of rejects and phone calls to get to this stage and I’m just about to re-submit to DVLA now it’s all in place, so I’m not quite finished yet. I’ve still got the Autocar to do with no receipt for purchase as I’ve owned it for a long time so that’s going to be fun !!!!

[Brooky]

The NOVA declaration is crucial

If you import a vehicle you have 14 days to do it

As said above if the vehicle has been in the UK for a time then still make the declaration

This then gives the DVLA the green light to register the vehicle

 

If in doubt talk to the relevant verification officer (or drop me a pm................I was the MVT Verification officer for three years!!)

[Sean N]

The DVLA will check with the HMRC that a declaration under NOVA has been made for that particular vehicle/chassis number

When the declaration is made HMRC place that number on the shared database (hence my expression "marker")

If the declaration has been made the DVLA carry on, if not they kick the application back to the applicant

 

Sorry for the confusion

 

NOVA only for non-UK vehicles though, Brooky? Not applicable if the trucks are, say, Bedfords or Commers?

[Brooky]

NOVA only for non-UK vehicles though, Brooky? Not applicable if the trucks are, say, Bedfords or Commers?

 

Yes, should have clarified that

DVLA did ask the MVT to include on the verification letter the country of origin

[Nick Johns]

NOVA only for non-UK vehicles though, Brooky? Not applicable if the trucks are, say, Bedfords or Commers?

 

The NOVA procedure applies to ANY barn find vehicle registration application that has no ID or paperwork even if its of UK manufacture and never left the country, they are treated the same as an import.

Read the thread on here of the long story of the trouble RMS had trying to register a Bedford OX

Edited April 8, 2015 by Nick Johns

[Brooky]

The NOVA procedure applies to ANY vehicle registration application to DVLA that has no ID or paperwork barn find even if its of UK origin and never left the country, they are treated the same as an import.

Read the thread on here of the long story of the trouble RMS had trying to register a Bedford OX

 

Can you post a link to that?

In my experience no notification was needed hence the request for country of origin

I may be wrong though as generally after I had issued a dating letter there was little feedback

I can though probably remember at least half a dozen non registered British vehicles that were registered OK

 

Rules may have changed though since I retired from the post at the back end of last year.

I suppose another form to fill in is a little inconvenient but a small price to pay to get your vehicle on the road

[Brooky]

Just had a look at the thread mentioned above

The posts were from 2013 when the system had just been introduced and the local DVLA offices were still open

A couple of thoughts

Firstly the local offices and staff were not always up to date with the latest directives from Swansea and some of the confusion may have been due to dealing with different people. (When I tried to amend the date of manufacture of my S1 Land Rover the staff in my local office had not seen the communication sent to the clubs )

 

Secondly I suppose whoever put the process together never thought that there would be old non registered vehicles still lurking about in the UK waiting to be registered!

 

I know I was asked by Swansea to confirm the country of origin of a Leyland Martian so it could be registered, hence why I always noted the country of manufacture on the dating letter

 

Perhaps somebody on here has up to date info on registering an older UK vehicle and how the process works now it is all based in Swansea

[N.O.S.]

….I know I was asked by Swansea to confirm the country of origin of a Leyland Martian so it could be registered…..

 

Understandable - did you reply MARS? :-D

[Tony Lawrence]

Just had a look at the thread mentioned above

The posts were from 2013 when the system had just been introduced and the local DVLA offices were still open

A couple of thoughts

Firstly the local offices and staff were not always up to date with the latest directives from Swansea and some of the confusion may have been due to dealing with different people. (When I tried to amend the date of manufacture of my S1 Land Rover the staff in my local office had not seen the communication sent to the clubs )

 

Secondly I suppose whoever put the process together never thought that there would be old non registered vehicles still lurking about in the UK waiting to be registered!

 

I know I was asked by Swansea to confirm the country of origin of a Leyland Martian so it could be registered, hence why I always noted the country of manufacture on the dating letter

 

Perhaps somebody on here has up to date info on registering an older UK vehicle and how the process works now it is all based in Swansea

 

I am the Verification Officer for IMPS and the system at the moment is a nightmare. Certainly get a NOVA no matter what, HMRC are quite used to the fact of issuing them for our type of vehicle just to satisfy DVLA.

Since late last year DVLA decided that they needed a source for our dating information...no problem as we always quoted book references and sometime internet sources (not Wikipedia) where there were no paper references easily available. Suddenly DVLA decided that sources from books or the internet were not satisfactory (even though they tell everybody to use the internet to access government information)...also we used sequential dating, i.e. if a make of vehicle , chassis number 12345 to 12445 was built in 1942, then 12400 would have been built in 1942 as well. With the help of the Federation of Historic British Vehicle Clubs there was a great deal of correspondence pointing out that without this type of reference there could be no means of dating a vehicle . We had applications returned where we used the vehicle manual which quoted manufacturing dates, official Russian motoring organisations as well as other well recognised sources. In one case the applicant even involved his local MP (his three times rejected application was passed immediately using the same information!!).

Incidentally, I have never been asked to provide a country of manufacture on our verification letters but it is a good point so I will include it in future.

Hopefully we have got matters sorted now and DVLA accept that we are not a one vehicle group of people and that it would be impossible to hold source data on every type of ex-military vehicle.

Finally, to add to the confusion, I found out the other day that one IMPS member recently registered a Ferret just using a letter from MOD Disposals that stated the date that the vehicle entered service - not the manufacture date. Imagine if that vehicle was manufactured in 1959 but only entered service in 1960 - would it need an MOT or not?

It was so much better in the old days with local licensing offices who sent out somebody to confirm that the vehicle was what was stated on the verification letter. Progress or what?

[Brooky]

I am the Verification Officer for IMPS and the system at the moment is a nightmare. Certainly get a NOVA no matter what, HMRC are quite used to the fact of issuing them for our type of vehicle just to satisfy DVLA.

Since late last year DVLA decided that they needed a source for our dating information...no problem as we always quoted book references and sometime internet sources (not Wikipedia) where there were no paper references easily available. Suddenly DVLA decided that sources from books or the internet were not satisfactory (even though they tell everybody to use the internet to access government information)...also we used sequential dating, i.e. if a make of vehicle , chassis number 12345 to 12445 was built in 1942, then 12400 would have been built in 1942 as well. With the help of the Federation of Historic British Vehicle Clubs there was a great deal of correspondence pointing out that without this type of reference there could be no means of dating a vehicle . We had applications returned where we used the vehicle manual which quoted manufacturing dates, official Russian motoring organisations as well as other well recognised sources. In one case the applicant even involved his local MP (his three times rejected application was passed immediately using the same information!!).

Incidentally, I have never been asked to provide a country of manufacture on our verification letters but it is a good point so I will include it in future.

Hopefully we have got matters sorted now and DVLA accept that we are not a one vehicle group of people and that it would be impossible to hold source data on every type of ex-military vehicle.

Finally, to add to the confusion, I found out the other day that one IMPS member recently registered a Ferret just using a letter from MOD Disposals that stated the date that the vehicle entered service - not the manufacture date. Imagine if that vehicle was manufactured in 1959 but only entered service in 1960 - would it need an MOT or not?

It was so much better in the old days with local licensing offices who sent out somebody to confirm that the vehicle was what was stated on the verification letter. Progress or what?

 

Tony

Interesting comments regarding source material

This came in towards the end of my tenure and as you say I used book references for vehicles that there were no records (I entered into a lot of correspondance with the DVLA regarding this evidence) because as you say military vehicles are not "one size fits all" as with a single make club.

The DVLA were happy with this

I think the reason for the hurdles are that the DVLA are putting in the way are trying to make sure that vehicles are dated correctly and that certain of the privelages of running older vehicles (MOT and Tax exemption) are not abused by certain members of the public.

However noble this may be though it certainly doesnt make the verification job any easier!!

I wonder if the members of clubs realise the hassle the verifiction officers have to go through!!

[AmmoMan]

Roughly how long does it currently take the MVT to process verification requests ?

[Brooky]

Roughly how long does it currently take the MVT to process verification requests ?

 

When I was doing it we used to quote up to around 3 months start to finish

Having said that they were usually completed quicker than that

 

The biggest issue is that the service relies on volunteers both as verification officer and the inspectors

As the MVT covers a large area actually finding someone reliable to perform the inspection can (could!) be the biggest hurdle

There is also a fair amount of "backroom" work to each application recording the application, making a file of evidence and so on as well as issuing the dating letter

 

All this is vital to prove to the DVLA that there are robust processes in place

 

Sorry if thats not the answer you were looking for!!!

[Sean N]

The NOVA procedure applies to ANY barn find vehicle registration application that has no ID or paperwork even if its of UK manufacture and never left the country, they are treated the same as an import.

 

 

Looking this up, HMRC say:

 

Who should complete a notification to HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC)?

You must notify HMRC if you are a:

 

 

• VAT registered business, a non VAT registered business or a private individual bringing a land vehicle into the UK that you have purchased from within the European Union (EU)

• VAT registered business bringing a land vehicle into the UK that you have purchased from outside the EU

• person or agent making a notification on behalf of any of the above

• VAT registered business who leases a vehicle from another VAT registered business within the EU where the lease includes an option to purchase the vehicle

 

 

You are not required to notify HMRC if you are a:

 

 

• private individual or a non VAT registered business importing vehicles purchased outside the EU

• visitor to the UK on holiday

• on a short-term secondment

• student on a recognised course

• VAT registered business approved to use the DVLA Automated First Registration and Licensing (AFRaL) scheme either electronically or on paper using forms V55(1) or V55(2)

• VAT registered businesses bringing a land vehicle into the UK on a temporary basis from outside the EU

 

 

...but then go on to say:

 

HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC)strongly advise that before purchasing any road vehicle that does not have a UK registration, either in the UK or abroad, evidence is obtained from the supplier of the vehicle that UK VAT has been accounted for or is not due.

If you make an application to register and license a vehicle that has not been notified to HMRC the DVLA / DVA will not register the vehicle (this will not affect your legal obligation to obtain a UK registration for the vehicle if you intend to keep it in the UK for road use). In order to register and license your vehicle you will need to make the notification and pay any VAT that is due as part of the notification process.

 

Which makes it sound as though it's the way DVLA are interpreting or processing things, rather than the regulations themselves.

 

A lot of vehicle owners have obviously been having problems with this, and it seems that part of the problem might be that DVLA's registration application systems are or were set up so that entering NOVA information was an unavoidable part of the flow, irrespective of the country of origin of the vehicle. This appears to have been part of RMS' problem.

 

There is clarification from FBHVC at http://fbhvc.co.uk/about-us/news/_article/22/hmrc-issues-guidelines-for-registering-restoration-projects-imported-prior-to-nova/ but it's specifically aimed at import vehicles, even if those imports may have been many years ago and changed hands a number of times since.

 

The government's own guidance at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-information-sheet-0613-notification-of-vehicle-arrivals/vat-information-sheet-0613-notification-of-vehicle-arrivals#the-legal-requirement-to-make-a-notification specifically says under exemptions to NOVA:

[h=3]When is a notification not required?[/h]A NOVA notification is not required for:

...

 

 

• vehicles registered and licensed using a V55/4 which have been manufactured in the UK and have not been imported from outside the UK (Go to Note (iv) for further information)

• vehicles registered and licensed using a V55/5 which have been manufactured in the UK and have not been imported from outside the UK (Go to Note (v) for further information)

 

...

[h=4]Note (v) Used vehicles registered and licensed using a V55/5 that are not vehicle imports[/h]Some very old vehicles are registered and licensed with the DVLA using a V55/5 form even though they are not vehicle imports. If this is the case, no NOVA notification is required where it is clear that the vehicle has been manufactured in the UK and there is no indication that the vehicle has ever left the UK.

 

and SI 2013/701, the enabling legislation, specifically and solely refers to "bringing vehicles into the UK".

 

All of this, of course, is no help if DVLA have decided a NOVA has to be issued irrespective, have not set up their systems correctly or have just not trained people correctly, but it might be satisfying to quote the law at them!

 

I wonder if part of the problem might be people using, or being told to use, V55/1 instead of V55/5 to register?

 

 

I am the Verification Officer for IMPS and the system at the moment is a nightmare. Certainly get a NOVA no matter what, HMRC are quite used to the fact of issuing them for our type of vehicle just to satisfy DVLA.

 

Since late last year DVLA decided that they needed a source for our dating information ... Suddenly DVLA decided that sources from books or the internet were not satisfactory ...

 

Interesting comments, Tony. I seem to remember there are new regulations, or at least new interpretations, laid down which makes the requirements for proof of age very tight - something about it having to come from manufacturers' original records, if I remember right, though I can't find the reference now.

 

 

Finally, to add to the confusion, I found out the other day that one IMPS member recently registered a Ferret just using a letter from MOD Disposals that stated the date that the vehicle entered service - not the manufacture date. Imagine if that vehicle was manufactured in 1959 but only entered service in 1960 - would it need an MOT or not?

 

MoD release papers have always been accepted by DVLA as proof that car tax / VAT has been paid, and date into service taken as date of manufacture. IF you can demonstrate the vehicle was built in 1959 to DVLA's satisfaction you should get a 1959 registration; you can even get the age changed if the vehicle is already registered as later from the date into service, though it's very hard work. If any earlier vehicle is registered as post 1960 from the DIS, then yes, it needs an MoT - I have exactly this situation with a 1955 built K9 which didn't go into service until 1960.

[Tony Lawrence]

"Interesting comments, Tony. I seem to remember there are new regulations, or at least new interpretations, laid down which makes the requirements for proof of age very tight - something about it having to come from manufacturers' original records, if I remember right, though I can't find the reference now."

 

All very well but how many manufacturers' original records exist for World War two vehicles - even Chrysler suggest alternative sources for WW2 Dodges and as for German or Russian vehicles? For those records that do exist then the internet is often the best solution as in many cases enthusiasts have compiled sensible data bases from these i.e jeep, GMC, Dodge. Hopefully now DVLA have seen the light and will accept our sources...as I said to them it is not much point nominating various clubs as authorities on their particular vehicles and then ignoring our advice/decisions regarding age of the vehicle.

[Brooky]

"Interesting comments, Tony. I seem to remember there are new regulations, or at least new interpretations, laid down which makes the requirements for proof of age very tight - something about it having to come from manufacturers' original records, if I remember right, though I can't find the reference now."

 

All very well but how many manufacturers' original records exist for World War two vehicles - even Chrysler suggest alternative sources for WW2 Dodges and as for German or Russian vehicles? For those records that do exist then the internet is often the best solution as in many cases enthusiasts have compiled sensible data bases from these i.e jeep, GMC, Dodge. Hopefully now DVLA have seen the light and will accept our sources...as I said to them it is not much point nominating various clubs as authorities on their particular vehicles and then ignoring our advice/decisions regarding age of the vehicle.

 

Exactly the same conversation I had with them as well!!

[Sean N]

All very well but how many manufacturers' original records exist for World War two vehicles ... Hopefully now DVLA have seen the light and will accept our sources...as I said to them it is not much point nominating various clubs as authorities on their particular vehicles and then ignoring our advice/decisions regarding age of the vehicle.

 

Absolutely. How many factory records exist for even quite common vehicles? Even Vauxhall Heritage don't have Bedford dating records. It's a good job DVLA are being rational and working sensibly with you.