question A few legal questions incase I ever find an RL

[winchman]

Looking for an RL.

If its pre 1960 its MOT exempt but what if its newer?

They weigh 4.4 Ton I THINK?

 

So if its pre 1960 4.4 + 3 Ton load =7.4 so I can drive it on my C1 licence

But weren't they re rated to 4 Ton at some time? so it would then be 8.8 ton?

So how do I down plate it, how hard, how expensive and I assume I couldn't drive it until it had been done?

Edited December 6, 2014 by winchman
Poor speling

[Nick Johns]

Any commercial vehicle manufactured pre 1960 is exempt from MOT test and can be driven on a pre 1999?C1 car licence if used as a show vehicle, used UNLADEN and can tow an Unladen trailer, and a maximum of 8 passengers, this applies to later vehicle too.

Post 1960 manufactured vehicles need a test, and if under 7.5T GVW can be driven on same C1 car licence, the maximum weight allowed.

An RL is 8.5 tons? Gross Vehicle Weight, I think its a fairly easy job to downrate it to under 7.5t GVW probably just remove the helper springs? the subject has been discussed on here before, btw. VOSA test fees for a 2 axle HGV is £112

Edited December 6, 2014 by Nick Johns

[winchman]

Any commercial vehicle manufactured pre 1960 is exempt from MOT test and can be driven on a pre 1999?C1 car licence if used as a show vehicle, used UNLADEN and can tow an Unladen trailer,

Post 1960 manufactured vehicles need a test, and if under 7.5gvw can still driven on same C1 car licence. An RL is 8.5 tons? GVW, I think its a fairly easy job to downrate it to under 7.5t GVW

 

Thanks that was quick

[RattlesnakeBob]

I suggest having a mooch on the ol' WWW because downrating a truck can get complicated......there's bound to be some up to date requirements on downrating a vehicle? .. On some I bought and sold over the years it could be a relatively straightforward job.....like changing the bolt sizes and the number of them holding on the fifth wheel on a tractor unit but.....on a 8.5 tonne M.A.N. I had in the 1990s I would have had to change the wheel sizes and also the rear springs as well to get her down to 7.5 tonne so it wasn't worth the hassle ...

I admit I don't have a clue what the modern regs are though so ....

[Sean N]

Looking for an RL.

If its pre 1960 its MOT exempt but what if its newer? They weigh 4.4 Ton I THINK? So if its pre 1960 4.4 + 3 Ton load =7.4 so I can drive it on my C1 licence

 

Dave, you can't calculate the relevant weights like this. Licencing, testing, taxation etc. are defined by the design (or revenue) gross weight, in turn defined by the manufacturer's design. To pick at your calculation a bit, RL unladen weight depends on the body type for a start - my flatbed, for example, is exactly 4 tonnes, an office or workshop body would be much heavier. The 3 ton load rating is the MoD's rating, which is typically less than the manufacturers' or VOSA's because the MoD expect to subject it to more strenuous work. You're also mixing your units - the army 3 ton rating is imperial, the limits for licencing are all metric (tonnes). So although you might have an RL 3 tonner that weighs 4 tons unladen - so 7 tons as far as the MoD are concerned - the gross for your (and civilian) purposes is still 8.8 tonnes because that's what VM and VOSA say it is, unless you get it downplated.

 

You're also confusing two things, under 7.5 tonnes gross and the pre-1960 exemption. The pre-1960 exemption applies to all Large Goods Vehicles made before 1960 - it doesn't matter about the gross weight, assuming it's enough to make it an LGV to start with. Under 7.5 tonnes it isn't an LGV anyway, so it doesn't matter about the age or using it unladen.

 

So how do I down plate it, how hard, how expensive and I assume I couldn't drive it until it had been done?

 

You need to ask someone authoritative about downplating. This is because VOSA will need to see evidence that the modification does actually reduce the load capacity, it's not enough to just turn up and say so. For common vehicles like Bedfords VOSA often have the downplating method on file already so it's worth asking them first. If not, try one of the long standing Bedford dealers or Vauxhall Heritage to start with. Typically on Bedfords the method is fairly simple such as removing helper springs. Expense obviously depends on how hard it is, so typically cheap (a few hours work) for Bedfords, and no, you can't drive it until it's done.

[radiomike7]

The 4 ton uprate was a paperwork exercise, the vehicle remained the same.

[winchman]

Thanks Sean

So let me look at it this way.

With the licence I have I can drive an RL if its Pre 1960?

 

What if its after 1960?

[hummermark]

I did down rate an M series 6x6 2 1/2 ton and put it through test and plate for some one that wanted to use it commercially but only had a 7.5 ton licence. I contacted a road spring manufacturer and gave them the size and amount of the leaves on the bogey, they came back with remove x amount and that will down rate bogey to x. Most importantly paper work to confirm the downrating was provided. The only comment I got at the goods testing station was not much pay load on a big truck!

 

In a similar vain I was having a conversation with someone who has a Foden 6x6 that according to the Jane's book 25,338Kgs GVW which puts it into the higher rate for taxing, I.e. exceeding 25tons is £410 but 25ton and under is £165. So I should imagine if you do the same and contact a spring company you would probably only have to take one leaf from the vehicle to bring it under the 25ton, after all you only have to lose 339kgs from the GVW.

[Brooky]

Thanks Sean

So let me look at it this way.

With the licence I have I can drive an RL if its Pre 1960?

 

What if its after 1960?

 

If its pre 1960 (manufactured) used unladen with an unladen trailer you will need CAT B (car entitlement)

The vehicle will also be exempt test and plate if not used in conjunction with a trade or business

[winchman]

If its pre 1960 (manufactured) used unladen with an unladen trailer you will need CAT B (car entitlement)

The vehicle will also be exempt test and plate if not used in conjunction with a trade or business

 

Thanks

So if I made a camper body that would mess it all up as if its fixed it would be come a camper but if its removable its a flat bed? But when the campers on its a flat bed carrying a load unless re registered as a camper?

Its complicated isn't it????

For the moment I will be happy with a flat bed and attend a few shows, best not take our monkey bike on the back or it would be classed as a load?

[Sean N]

In a similar vain I was having a conversation with someone who has a Foden 6x6 that according to the Jane's book 25,338Kgs GVW which puts it into the higher rate for taxing, I.e. exceeding 25tons is £410 but 25ton and under is £165. So I should imagine if you do the same and contact a spring company you would probably only have to take one leaf from the vehicle to bring it under the 25ton, after all you only have to lose 339kgs from the GVW.

 

Often when I've downplated vehicles that were already very close to the lower weight VOSA have just done it as a paperwork exercise without any mods.

 

So let me look at it this way.

With the licence I have I can drive an RL if its Pre 1960?

 

What if its after 1960?

 

Dave, my understanding is as Brooky and Nick have already said, if it's pre-1960 used unladen and not drawing a laden trailer you can drive it on a car licence. If it's post 1960 you have three choices; downplate it, get an LGV rigid licence or make it not a goods vehicle somehow, normally change of body type.

 

Thanks

So if I made a camper body that would mess it all up as if its fixed it would be come a camper but if its removable its a flat bed? But when the campers on its a flat bed carrying a load unless re registered as a camper?

Its complicated isn't it????

For the moment I will be happy with a flat bed and attend a few shows, best not take our monkey bike on the back or it would be classed as a load?

 

I think it's probably all going round in your head and so seems complicated, it isn't really.

 

If you make it a camper - permanently - it's no longer a goods vehicle so LGV licencing (and testing) doesn't apply.

 

If you put a demountable camper body on a flatbed truck I think DVLA would interpret it as a goods vehicle carrying a load and I think would say LGV licencing would still apply.

 

Your monkey bike would almost certainly be interpreted as a load. Whether anyone would get excited enough to do anything about it I don't know. I think in these circumstances the problems normally come when you get stopped for some other misdemeanour and they start checking.

 

This is only my understanding of the rules, not legal advice!

[Starfire]

Wow, your UK licensing requirements are confusing, especially with all the exemptions.

 

Cheers,

Terry

[winchman]

 

 

I think it's probably all going round in your head and so seems complicated, it isn't really.

 

 

Thanks its just too much info and questions, I think I am on top of now.

[Brooky]

The really simple answer (although you probably dont want to hear it is:-

 

1. Go and take your CAT C licence test (you WILL not need driver CPC if you are not driving professionally)

 

2. When you get your RL get it tested and plated

 

Then you have no problems at all if you get pulled by the police or DVSA at the side of the road, or god forbid you are involved in an accident.

 

The cost for the above then becomes completely irrelevant!

[winchman]

The really simple answer (although you probably dont want to hear it is:-

 

1. Go and take your CAT C licence test (you WILL not need driver CPC if you are not driving professionally)

 

2. When you get your RL get it tested and plated

 

Then you have no problems at all if you get pulled by the police or DVSA at the side of the road, or god forbid you are involved in an accident.

 

The cost for the above then becomes completely irrelevant!

Your right I don't want to hear it !

I understand what you are saying I often kick my self as years ago I drove a down plated 8.8 ton lorry so should have done the test then!

The bigger issues is it looks the bottoms fell out of my storage world, Storage I was banking on is now closing, I did find another but he wanted £40 a week!

[Sean N]

Wow, your UK licensing requirements are confusing, especially with all the exemptions.

 

Cheers,

Terry

 

I'm not sure they are that confusing, Terry. Essentially it comes down to this: it's either a goods vehicle or it's not a goods vehicle. If it is a goods vehicle, and it's a small one, you can drive it on a car licence. If it's a large goods vehicle you need a special goods vehicle licence to drive it.

 

The exemptions can make things confusing, but they're all in about a two page list and most of them are irrelevant to us.

 

The thing I find confusing is the phrasing of the legislation and the interpretation: for example, what is essentially the same thing tends to be phrased in different ways in different pieces of legislation, which opens up unnecessary grey areas in the law; and DVLA (more so than VOSA) in their published material sometimes seem vague or inaccurate.

[cosrec]

I'm not sure they are that confusing, Terry. Essentially it comes down to this: it's either a goods vehicle or it's not a goods vehicle. If it is a goods vehicle, and it's a small one, you can drive it on a car licence. If it's a large goods vehicle you need a special goods vehicle licence to drive it.

 

The exemptions can make things confusing, but they're all in about a two page list and most of them are irrelevant to us.

 

The thing I find confusing is the phrasing of the legislation and the interpretation: for example, what is essentially the same thing tends to be phrased in different ways in different pieces of legislation, which opens up unnecessary grey areas in the law; and DVLA (more so than VOSA) in their published material sometimes seem vague or inaccurate.

 

best summing up I have seen to add to the bit about exemptions people seem to seize on these as an excuse non of them allow you drive on a private basis to shows etc

[ArtistsRifles]

Your right I don't want to hear it !

I understand what you are saying I often kick my self as years ago I drove a down plated 8.8 ton lorry so should have done the test then!

The bigger issues is it looks the bottoms fell out of my storage world, Storage I was banking on is now closing, I did find another but he wanted £40 a week!

 

Look on the positive side - you can at least go and take the relevant test if you decide you want to/want a newer vehicle! :-) :-)

You could have been in the same boat as me now - had all 3 HGV's and lost them on medical grounds so now cannot drive anything over 3500 Kg unless built pre- 1 Jan 1960!!!

[Starfire]

Here in Australia, there basically are no exemptions, although historic vehicles get some concessions in the form of reduced registration, insurance and inspection requirements (for heavy vehicles).

 

For the Saracen, I needed a HR (Heavy Rigid) license, which allows me to drive any non-articulated vehicle (other than a "bendy bus), of any weight with a trailer up to 9,000 kg.

 

Basically, we have:

R - Motorcycle - Don't ask me why they picked "R".

C - Car - anything up to 4,500 kg.

LR - Light Rigid - Anything up to 8,000 kg (no-one actually offers training for this and everyone that needs it gets the MR instead).

MR - Medium Rigid - any vehicle with 2 axles up to 25,000 kg.

HR - Heavy Rigid - any non-articulated vehicle.

HC - Heavy Combination - Any semi trailer.

MC - Multi Combination - Road trains and B Doubles.

 

Each class allows you to drive all of the previous classes, with the exception of R, which requires its own test. You don't have to get all of the previous classes either - I went from a C to an MR. MR and above can have gearbox restrictions, depending on what you passed your test with - Auto, Synchromesh or Unrestricted (crash box). The Saracen is a bit of a grey area there, the pre-selector would have probably been ok with an auto license, but I got the unrestricted, so I can drive anything else in the museum.

 

Cheers,

Terry

[Richard Farrant]

Here in Australia, there basically are no exemptions, although historic vehicles get some concessions in the form of reduced registration, insurance and inspection requirements (for heavy vehicles).

 

 

 

 

Hi Terry,

The Historic or Club rego system in Australia is a bit of a pain, having to submit where you are going and when with your vehicle and only allowed to use it for event and limited testing. We have complete freedom with our Historics, so long as they are not used for trade purposes, and now there are no inspections required for all pre-1960 vehicles. No tax fee either, a reasonable insurance fee.

I have experienced your system, filling in log book daily, etc.

 

regards, Richard

[Starfire]

I don't know about other states, but in South Australia, you only have to fill in the logbook once a day stating what you are doing/where you are going. It doesn't have to be a club event or anything. The main reason for this is that you're only allowed to use it 90 days per year, and a logbook entry confirms that. I guess if you got done by a speed camera or something, you'd also have to be able to show a corresponding entry in the book.

 

Given that I got the Saracen up to 80 the other day, there is a potential for a speeding ticket in it

 

Cheers,

Terry

[Richard Farrant]

I

Given that I got the Saracen up to 80 the other day, there is a potential for a speeding ticket in it

 

 

 

Terry you are not saying you were doing 80 mph? Good grief, you must have wedged the rotor arm cut out

 

I know NSW rules are different to SA over club rego as the subject recently came up.

[Starfire]

No, not 80 MPH, that would have been a sight - 80 kph was fast enough!

 

Cheers,

Terry

[Brooky]

best summing up I have seen to add to the bit about exemptions people seem to seize on these as an excuse non of them allow you drive on a private basis to shows etc

 

How very true!!

Square pegs into round holes spring to mind sometimes

The only relevant one is the pre 1960 used unladen etc etc.............