question Advice Needed - Rolls B80 engine problems

[Asciidv]

I am needing some advice from all of the HMVF Rolls B80 experts!

I bought this machine 8 years ago and now is the time to breathe life back into the engine. At the time that I bought it I was told that the engine was fine (which I tend to believe). The problem that I have is that the oil pressure fluctuates. The key to the problem (I think) is that if I take the oil pressure gauge pipe and hold it under a bath of oil, oil pumps out, then air, then oil, then air....

It seems that the oil pump is sucking up air as well as oil.

On this engine the oil pump is connected to the strainer by a pipe which has two pivoted joints.

 

 

 

The joint closest to the strainer allows the strain to tilt up and down so that it can 'float' on the surface of the oil - according to the manual. I think that actually it will always remain submerged in the oil along with the pivoting joint.

The second pivoting joint allows the whole strainer to rotate in a horizontal plane so that it can swing through about 90 degrees in the sump. Why you would want this to happen I just cannot guess. This joint is just above the oil level and is a very loose coupling. I think the problem lies here.

 

 

If you take the joint apart you see that the pipe from the strainer has a flange and a pin locates under the flange to hold the pipe in place. Just under the flange is a groove and I wondered if an 'O' ring might fit here. In the picture you can see the 'O' ring in place.

 

 

However the 'O' ring can only seal on a very narrow area of the casting just above where the pin emerges.

 

 

It doesn't seem a very clever design if it is meant to be like this. Also I have my doubts that 'O' rings were even available in the early 50's?

So what do you think? Has anyone ever encountered anything like this before? Any suggestions would be gratefully received.

 

Barry.

[Starfire]

I only have some limited experience with the B80, all of which have the dry sump arrangement.

 

As you seem technically capable, perhaps try temporarily replacing the strainer arrangement with a length of hose going straight into the oil pan and see if that gives satisfactory results? That would certainly tell you if the strainer was the issue or if you need to look elsewhere.

 

Cheers,

Terry

[Richard Farrant]

Rubber rings were fitted to the swivel joints in oil strainers. Incidentally, O-rings have been about earlier than the 50's

[David Herbert]

You say that the joint in question is "very loose". This is not in keeping with the totally over engineered nature of these engines and I can not see any virtue in it. If there is suposed to be an O ring there it becomes, in effect, part of the bearing which is certainly not right and would not last very long at all. So even if there is another problem, I would want to fix this one. If you have the engineering facilities, you could ream out the hole in the oil pump cover very slightly bigger and as deep as possible, to give a longer bearing, and make a new spigot to match to fit in the swiveling elbow. It looks to just be pressed in so the old one should pull out with a bit of effort. Failing that I would be wanting to find replacement parts that are not so loose fitting.

 

Presumably the purpose of the swiveling was to provide for pickup at extreme angles of cross tilt of the vehicle. If it is not the sort of vehicle to go on rough terrain (eg fire engine) you could as a last resort simply glue the pivot in its mid position with a suitable high temperature glue ! You would still need to refit the pin though in case it does move again.

 

David

[Asciidv]

Here is a short video which shows the problem;

 

 

 

Thank you for the responses so far, I will reply to the suggestions in detail a little later.

 

Thanks,

 

Barry.

 

(It is an HD video, so it will play full screen for maximum clarity).

[GeePig]

Do you have a parts and/or workshop manual for the engine?

 

trevor

[Richard Farrant]

This type and make of pick up strainer was used in other engines as well, the Humber 6-cyl side valve is on that comes to mind.

[Richard Farrant]

If you go to EMER Power S522 para. 38 it says, I quote;

"the bottom of the extension has a pedestal which accommodates the pump strainer and elbow. The elbow has a rubber sealing ring attached to its end and is a push fit in the pedestal. The sealing ring allows free movement of the elbow so that the floating strainer may remain below the surface of the oil in the sump, regardless of level of oil."

[Asciidv]

Trevor, I do have a workshop manual for this engine but there is no mention of a sealing ring. The whole strainer assembly hardly has a mention at all. Are parts books available?

 

The idea of a floating strainer seems a bit too complex for the purpose. Surely a fixed strainer at a depth of say 1/2" from the bottom of the sump would be just as good?

 

Anyway, the plan for this weekend is to run the engine with a fixed pipe direct from the base of the oil pump to within 1/2" from the floor of the sump. This will prove or disprove the notion that the air is entering the system through the strainer pivot joints.

 

Incidentally the sump on this engine is a nightmare to remove. There are 5 sump nuts on either side of the engine completely masked by a sideways extension of the sump. Getting them all back on takes at least two hours, so the plan is to leave them off until final assembly time arrives. As one of you might have guessed I have been a little reluctant to disclose into which vehicle this engine is fitted for it is a FIRE ENGINE without any military leanings at all. I hope I can be excused....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fOwWxXLipcBarry

 

 

Barry.

[cosrec]

Right strange question was the vehicle an up running vehicle when you bought it did it have good oil pressure then 8 years ago. What i am getting at is have just seen video and if you have done nothing to it for 8 years and tried to start it and no oil pressure did you do anything else before striping engine out.

Edited May 13, 2014 by cosrec

[Asciidv]

The video doesn't tell the whole story. Prior to even trying to start the engine, I dropped the sump, cleaned out all the old oil and replaced the filter. The lack of ZERO oil pressure on this first start was due to a faulty gauge. Having replaced the gauge I now see the correct oil pressure (around 8lbs at tickover, which is correct according to the manual) in fits and starts.

 

Could a sealing ring have deteriorated in 8 years? When I cleaned out the sump, nothing struck me as being particularly solid like old rubber, but I suppose I was looking more for metal.

 

It is a mystery!

 

Barry.

[Starfire]

Given that your avatar is the Dennis logo, and as far as I'm aware all of the military B80s had a dry sump, I'd already guessed that you had a fire engine

 

Not to worry though, those of us poking around with old vehicles need to stick together and need all the help we can get

 

Cheers,

Terry

[Richard Farrant]

. As one of you might have guessed I have been a little reluctant to disclose into which vehicle this engine is fitted for it is a FIRE ENGINE without any military leanings at all. I hope I can be excused....

 

 

 

Barry.

 

Hi Barry,

Not looked at the video, but from the dash panel view it looks similar to the F12 Dennis I restored for Manston Fire museum many years ago. I have a parts list for a B60 military engine with wet sump, it has no illustration but the RR part number looks like RE11696 Washer, packing, oil pump pedestal, 2 off per engine. Give my friend, Richard Banister a call on 01797 253211, he is the RR parts guru and could well have what you need. I am pretty sure this is what you are after.

 

regards, Richard

Edited May 13, 2014 by Richard Farrant
grammar

[Richard Farrant]

, and as far as I'm aware all of the military B80s had a dry sump, I'd already guessed that you had a fire engine

 

 

 

Terry,

The British military used a lot of wet sump B range engines, ranging from Champ, generators, Leyland Martian, Thornycroft Nubians, Humber FV1600 series and so on.

I have a B60 out of a Bedford TK fire engine to strip for diagnosis in near future and I would feel certain it has the same oil pick up.

[Starfire]

Terry,

The British military used a lot of wet sump B range engines, ranging from Champ, generators, Leyland Martian, Thornycroft Nubians, Humber FV1600 series and so on.

I have a B60 out of a Bedford TK fire engine to strip for diagnosis in near future and I would feel certain it has the same oil pick up.

 

Thanks Richard,

 

I Don't want to get into an internet fight and I know that most of these military applications that you have listed run wet sumps, but my statement was that I was not aware of a B80 in military use with a wet sump. I could be, and probably am, wrong

Champ - B40

Generators - NFI

Martian - B81

Nubian - B81

Humber FV1600 - B60

 

Cheers,

Terry

[Richard Farrant]

Thanks Richard,

 

I Don't want to get into an internet fight and I know that most of these military applications that you have listed run wet sumps, but my statement was that I was not aware of a B80 in military use with a wet sump. I could be, and probably am, wrong

Champ - B40

Generators - NFI

Martian - B81

Nubian - B81

Humber FV1600 - B60

 

Cheers,

Terry

 

Hi Terry,

Sorry it was late at night, I just read it as B range in general. I have spent the best part of my working life working on military vehicles, half of which working for the military and know that 4x4 Nubians had B80 wet sump engines, as did the winch engine out of the Cent ARV. Some early trucks also had B80 before upgrading to 81. To me it is splitting hairs between an 80 and 81, it is only when you dismantle it that the difference matters.

 

regards, Richard

[Starfire]

Thanks for the clarification

 

With a B80 powering it, it must be one hell of a winch on the Centurion ARV!

 

Cheers,

Terry

[Asciidv]

Richard Bannister is now onto the case with Richard Farrant having provided the lead with a part number (Thank you Richard). I must say that Bannisters are absolutely first class and should be the first people to deal with for B series engine spares. I have used the 'other people' in the past but there is just no comparison if your request is a little odd.

 

Thanks, to all who have responded,

 

Barry.

[Asciidv]

Today I replaced the strainer assembly with a straight forward turned piece of black nylon bar with a hole up the middle. This was a tight fit into the base of the pump and cleared the floor of the sump by about 1/2".

 

 

With the sump back on, I started up the engine, and YES, total success! Good and steady oil pressure without any fluctuations. So all I need now are the new sealing rings to put into the strainer assembly and all will be as good as new.

 

Here is a video showing the oil pressure. The engine is missing a bit, but I am sure new plugs will soon sort this out.

 

[video=youtube_share;MVr4ma7W50E]

 

 

Barry.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Asciidv

[griff66]

you will enjoy it if u visit his place!!!!!

[FoolsHumor]

Very classy looking oil pressure gage.

[Asciidv]

Not the gauge for the vehicle which is mid 50's but the standard type on all early 30's Dennis Fire Engines. Hence the brass bezel to match up with all the other bits of brass on a fire engine.

 

Barry.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Asciidv

[MWMike]

I am by no means a B80 expert but have worked on lots of equipment like this. I would suspect that there would be a large O ring above the shoulder on the pickup tube, with the split pin holding the pickup in, below this, you would then get the o ring seal between the top machined face of the hole in the housing and the shoulder on the pickup shaft, with the pin giving some sealing pressure, you would have to push the assembly in against the rubber O ring to give some sealing pressure.

 

hope you have success......

 

mike

[Asciidv]

I was a little set back when Richard Bannister said that the pedestal packing pieces were not available for the UNF engine, so I decided to have a two pronged attack. The first approach was to bore out the pedestal and then sleeve the pipe from the strainer. In this way it is possible to make the two parts a good fit to minimise the chance of an air leak.

 

 

As the pedestal is not square to the base of the oil pump it had to be mounted on a plate first and then angled in the vice. A brass sleeve was then turned to fit and pressed over the strainer pipe.

 

 

By chance I then spotted this soft rubber bellows which I had put to one side thinking it might come in useful one day. It was removed from one of the slide pins of a disk brake caliper.

 

 

Here you see the bellows fitted between the pedestal and the flange of the strainer pipe, just as Mike in the previous post suggested. It made a perfect seal and still allowed for rotation (although admittedly not as freely as before).

 

Of course the proof of the pudding was seen when I started up the engine. I had just fitted a new set of N-8 Chanpion plugs and it fired instantly and settled down to a regular steady tickover on all 8, with 18 PSI showing on the gauge. When the engine was revved the oil pressure went up to 30PSI at which point the oil pressure relief valve opens to limit any further increase.

 

Success at last!:-D

 

Barry.

[Starfire]

Good to hear that you got it sorted. Where does the oil pressure gauge plumb in to the engine? My Saracen is only fitted with a warning light and that is staying illuminated at the moment (pretty sure that it's an electrical problem). Unfortunately, the manual that I have says to refer to the EMER Power for details about finding and removing the sensor, and I don't have that one

 

I'd like to fix the warning light (pretty sure that it's actually water damage/corrosion in the junction box) and also fit a mechanical gauge.

 

Cheers,

Terry