question Ferret Starting Issue

[Duffy]

My 54 MkI Ferret is sitting on blocks in my garage. I start it up every month or so and have never had an issue.

Two days ago I charged up the batteries and attempted to start it.

After several short attempts it fired up but when I released the starter switch the engine died immediately. It did this every time. It would start up and even rev up quite nicely as long as I kept the starter switch on.

I thought there must be something electrical and I was thinking I would install the nos ignition assembly sooner than later.

I asked a mechanic that I have had work on it before and his thoughts were that the starter motor or more specifically the the gear on the starter that engages the flywheel is not retracting and is in fact remaining engaged with the flywheel. The result being the engine dies immediately. He suggested that I give the starter a whack or two and maybe the gear will disengage.

So what are your thoughts.....should I give it a whack and try again or is there another approach?

 

Thanks

 

Alan

[Diana and Jackie]

There is a resistor that gets shorted out when starting, immediately the engine starts the short circuit is removed. The resistor is in series with the 24v feed to the ignition coil.

 

Highly likely the resistor has gone open circuit. Easy test, switch on the ignition and check for 24 volts (or thereabouts) at coil (voltage will depend upon whether points are closed or not).

 

Diana

 

My 54 MkI Ferret is sitting on blocks in my garage. I start it up every month or so and have never had an issue.

Two days ago I charged up the batteries and attempted to start it.

After several short attempts it fired up but when I released the starter switch the engine died immediately. It did this every time. It would start up and even rev up quite nicely as long as I kept the starter switch on.

I thought there must be something electrical and I was thinking I would install the nos ignition assembly sooner than later.

I asked a mechanic that I have had work on it before and his thoughts were that the starter motor or more specifically the the gear on the starter that engages the flywheel is not retracting and is in fact remaining engaged with the flywheel. The result being the engine dies immediately. He suggested that I give the starter a whack or two and maybe the gear will disengage.

So what are your thoughts.....should I give it a whack and try again or is there another approach?

 

Thanks

 

Alan

[joeferret]

Duffy please post about the remedy when you get it fixed.Good luck for an easy & quick fix.........

Diana & Jackie thank you for a very informative post....I always make notes in my manuals when people like you post...

Edited April 25, 2013 by joeferret

[ferretfixer]

The component is called a balance resistor. Common in ALL 24v FFR Series Land Rovers, Etc.

[joeferret]

Can anyone say why this resistor goes bad from just sitting besides old age?

Would it have been better if a trickle battery charger is left on?

[Richard Farrant]

The component is called a balance resistor.

 

Ballast Resistor

[Marmite!!]

For those that haven't read it yet please take the time to read Clive's excellent paper on Ignition http://www.hmvf.co.uk/pdf/IGNITIONMATTERS.pdf

 

Clive Elliott reviews some aspects of ignition systems including the fitting of electronic ignition.

 

Although this article is principally about the ignition system fitted to the Rolls Royce B60 engine used in the Humber 1-Ton and Ferrets, I hope there will be some points of interest for owners of other vehicles.

 

[griff66]

u can try giving starter a smack long as u dont brake it might make u feel better!

[Diana and Jackie]

Simple Damp = corrosion, often caused by either atmospheric conditions or where the person assembling it in those days handled the resistance wire/component.

 

Diana

 

 

Can anyone say why this resistor goes bad from just sitting besides old age?

Would it have been better if a trickle battery charger is left on?

[Raymond.C]

Simple Damp = corrosion, often caused by either atmospheric conditions or where the person assembling it in those days handled the resistance wire/component.

 

Diana

 

Diana

I have been reading your advice on the above subject, I to have a ferret with starting problems perhaps you could help.

 

With the ign switched on I'm only getting a reading on the coil of 0.7 volts (less than 1 volt) when the starter is engaged the voltage jumps to 22volts for a split second and very quickly drops to 18v then to single figures. There is no spark at the points during this operation.

However if I connect a pos feed from another battery to the coil and the neg to earth (the engine) when I open and close the points I get a spark which I think rules out the coil condenser points etc.?

 

Raymond

[fv1609]

Raymond when you say you get 0.7 volts at the coil, is this at SW or CB terminal?

 

Getting a spark at the points is not really an indication that the condenser is ok. The job of the condenser is to reduce the sparking as the points open as it absorbs the back EMF induced into the primary winding which is in the order of 300 volts. A failing condenser will allow a bigger spark, so it is not a sign of good health as such.

[Raymond.C]

Raymond when you say you get 0.7 volts at the coil, is this at SW or CB terminal?

 

Getting a spark at the points is not really an indication that the condenser is ok. The job of the condenser is to reduce the sparking as the points open as it absorbs the back EMF induced into the primary winding which is in the order of 300 volts. A failing condenser will allow a bigger spark, so it is not a sign of good health as such.

 

Clive

Thanks for getting back to me so quick. The voltage at the coil is on the SW side. The condenser and distr cap are new. I removed the coil and tested it on a car and it started first time. Happy to try anything.

Ray

[fv1609]

Ray, so with the ignition on (& ignoring the starter for now) I would expect you to read 24 v on SW with the points open reducing to 12v when the points closed. Use an insulated screwdriver to either open the points if they are closed or close them electrically if they are open. Insulated because there is 300v around the primary on opening (that is the spark at the points)

 

If you don't get readings of significant voltage it looks like a defect in one of the ballast resistors (there are 2 in series).

 

For these measurements are you using an analogue meter or one of the digital things that seem quite happy to throw up trivial readings even if it may have nothing to measure? I am a fan of the Avo 12

[Raymond.C]

Ray, so with the ignition on (& ignoring the starter for now) I would expect you to read 24 v on SW with the points open reducing to 12v when the points closed. Use an insulated screwdriver to either open the points if they are closed or close them electrically if they are open. Insulated because there is 300v around the primary on opening (that is the spark at the points)

 

If you don't get readings of significant voltage it looks like a defect in one of the ballast resistors (there are 2 in series).

 

For these measurements are you using an analogue meter or one of the digital things that seem quite happy to throw up trivial readings even if it may have nothing to measure? I am a fan of the Avo 12

 

Clive

I'll try it tomorrow, i'm using a digital meter. what is a Avo 12 is it another type of meter?

thanks

Ray

[fv1609]

Ray the Avo 12 is an analogue (moving coil) multimeter especially appropriate for automotive use with ranges that include 18 & 36 volts, so ideal for 12 & 24 volt systems. Many EMERs quote readings to be expected on an Avo 12 or Avo 7.

 

It has low ohms per volt meaning that there is a small current drawn as it measures the voltage. Unlike digital meters that draw virtually no current that make them ideal in electronic circuitry. The problem is that digital meters whether you are measuring volts or ohms can often throw up meaningless readings when there is nothing to measure or the voltages may be at a very tiny current but are not meaningful sources of power that are significant in an automotive application.

 

If you know there is a voltage there & you want a reading to several decimal places then digital is fine. But if you are prodding around trying to see if the is a voltage there or not & not sure of what magnitude it might be, I find a digital meter is quite a mischievous device to rely on.

 

Often I do not need a very accurate reading as such but need to see a trend with a needle moving up or down. A flashing digital display is tiresome. I know better meters have a bar graph as well but this lacks the smooth continuity of a moving needle.

 

I do have a high spec Fluke digital built to a military spec but it displays the short comings above. I like my Avo 12 best, in fact so much so I have two. One has a REME Wksp number on it, if its good enough for them it should be good enough for me

[Raymond.C]

Ray the Avo 12 is an analogue (moving coil) multimeter especially appropriate for automotive use with ranges that include 18 & 36 volts, so ideal for 12 & 24 volt systems. Many EMERs quote readings to be expected on an Avo 12 or Avo 7.

 

It has low ohms per volt meaning that there is a small current drawn as it measures the voltage. Unlike digital meters that draw virtually no current that make them ideal in electronic circuitry. The problem is that digital meters whether you are measuring volts or ohms can often throw up meaningless readings when there is nothing to measure or the voltages may be at a very tiny current but are not meaningful sources of power that are significant in an automotive application.

 

If you know there is a voltage there & you want a reading to several decimal places then digital is fine. But if you are prodding around trying to see if the is a voltage there or not & not sure of what magnitude it might be, I find a digital meter is quite a mischievous device to rely on.

 

Often I do not need a very accurate reading as such but need to see a trend with a needle moving up or down. A flashing digital display is tiresome. I know better meters have a bar graph as well but this lacks the smooth continuity of a moving needle.

 

I do have a high spec Fluke digital built to a military spec but it displays the short comings above. I like my Avo 12 best, in fact so much so I have two. One has a REME Wksp number on it, if its good enough for them it should be good enough for me

 

Clive

Now I understand and come to think of it we did have a few misreading with the digital. I will try and get one tomorrow.

I very much appreciate you taking the time to explain everything. I will get back to you tomorrow. i.v been trying to solve this problem for months.

Thanks again

Ray

[fv1609]

I will try and get one tomorrow.

I'm afraid not Ray they ceased manufacture of that many years ago. You sometimes see them on auction sites. The most common is Avo 8 there are several for sale at the moment, they have more ranges. But they are not cheap although I bought one last week for £10!

 

Something like this would be fine:

 

http://www.maplin.co.uk/mt-2017-large-analogue-multimeter-626116#specification

 

It has volts & ohms, unlike many low cost analogue meters its DC current range is 10 amps. Many cheaper meters only do 0.25 or 0.1 amps. The Avo 12 can read up to 360 amps, yes & that's a lot more than many digitals can do.

 

The other point about analogue meters is that on ohms you can zero out the resistance of the leads. When you measure ohms on a digital meter the lead resistance is added to the displayed reading.

[Diana and Jackie]

I totally agree with Clive, any moving coil voltmeter, even cheapie ones, are far superior to a digital meter for doing electrical testing on classic/historic vehicles.

 

I also agree with Clive regarding the ballast resistor, a quickie test is to short them (yes there are two resistors) out with a jumper lead (lead with crocodile clips on each end) and see if the engine runs, alternatively a fast check with a testmeter set to ohms (an ohmeter) and see if the figure compares with the diagram spec. In the case of low value resistors here a digital meter is useful as long as one is aware that the figures can be misleading i.e the meter probes need to make good contact with the component being tested.

 

If you've tested all the other components then there's not much left to test. The capacitor across the points can fail and sometimes its diagnosis is confusing. Lastly those nasty bullet connectors used on the Ferret and other vehicles can develop a poor connection, again through corrosion, clean them up and apply silicon grease which is relativity safe for rubber. Check that there is 24 volts or thereabouts on the positive feed to the coil ballast resistors.

 

Diana

 

 

Ray the Avo 12 is an analogue (moving coil) multimeter especially appropriate for automotive use with ranges that include 18 & 36 volts, so ideal for 12 & 24 volt systems. Many EMERs quote readings to be expected on an Avo 12 or Avo 7.

 

It has low ohms per volt meaning that there is a small current drawn as it measures the voltage. Unlike digital meters that draw virtually no current that make them ideal in electronic circuitry. The problem is that digital meters whether you are measuring volts or ohms can often throw up meaningless readings when there is nothing to measure or the voltages may be at a very tiny current but are not meaningful sources of power that are significant in an automotive application.

 

If you know there is a voltage there & you want a reading to several decimal places then digital is fine. But if you are prodding around trying to see if the is a voltage there or not & not sure of what magnitude it might be, I find a digital meter is quite a mischievous device to rely on.

 

Often I do not need a very accurate reading as such but need to see a trend with a needle moving up or down. A flashing digital display is tiresome. I know better meters have a bar graph as well but this lacks the smooth continuity of a moving needle.

 

I do have a high spec Fluke digital built to a military spec but it displays the short comings above. I like my Avo 12 best, in fact so much so I have two. One has a REME Wksp number on it, if its good enough for them it should be good enough for me

[Lindsay]

My 54 MkI Ferret is sitting on blocks in my garage. I start it up every month or so and have never had an issue.

Two days ago I charged up the batteries and attempted to start it.

After several short attempts it fired up but when I released the starter switch the engine died immediately. It did this every time. It would start up and even rev up quite nicely as long as I kept the starter switch on.

I thought there must be something electrical and I was thinking I would install the nos ignition assembly sooner than later.

I asked a mechanic that I have had work on it before and his thoughts were that the starter motor or more specifically the the gear on the starter that engages the flywheel is not retracting and is in fact remaining engaged with the flywheel. The result being the engine dies immediately. He suggested that I give the starter a whack or two and maybe the gear will disengage.

So what are your thoughts.....should I give it a whack and try again or is there another approach?

 

Thanks

 

Alan

Alan

 

You should have bought a reliable ferret......😉😉

[Raymond.C]

I totally agree with Clive, any moving coil voltmeter, even cheapie ones, are far superior to a digital meter for doing electrical testing on classic/historic vehicles.

 

I also agree with Clive regarding the ballast resistor, a quickie test is to short them (yes there are two resistors) out with a jumper lead (lead with crocodile clips on each end) and see if the engine runs, alternatively a fast check with a testmeter set to ohms (an ohmeter) and see if the figure compares with the diagram spec. In the case of low value resistors here a digital meter is useful as long as one is aware that the figures can be misleading i.e the meter probes need to make good contact with the component being tested.

 

If you've tested all the other components then there's not much left to test. The capacitor across the points can fail and sometimes its diagnosis is confusing. Lastly those nasty bullet connectors used on the Ferret and other vehicles can develop a poor connection, again through corrosion, clean them up and apply silicon grease which is relativity safe for rubber. Check that there is 24 volts or thereabouts on the positive feed to the coil ballast resistors.

 

Diana

Diana

Thanks for your help, my experience is limited but I'll try and follow your advice. I'll get back to you.

ray

[Duffy]

Wow.....and to think I simply wanted to hit the starter with a hammer!

[griff66]

yeh and have u tried belting it in conjunction with fully charged batteries?:cool2:

[GeePig]

The other question is how good is the starter. Just because it turns the motor over fast enough doesn't mean it isn't stealing all the power due to failing components.

 

When it comes to digital versus analogue instruments, I like digital. When the numbers start jumping it is telling you something is changing, but you don't actually have to watch the numbers flickering. If you get used to analogue you can end up expecting the digital to respond in a similar manner, and vice versa of course, but it is a very much different kind of information source, and will respond to things that are damped out on analogue instruments. It is like comparing religions - very different, and not always easy to value the other's belief as being equal to one's own. However, my best instrument is a small plastic box with an LED on it and some brass contact points and sockets that I designed and built when I was a student

[ferretfixer]

 

Ballast Resistor

OOPPS! Typo Spelling! Thank you Headmaster!..

 

[Richard Farrant]

OOPPS! Typo Spelling! Thank you Headmaster!..

 

9/10 for English this week. Try harder