GlenAnderson Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Hi All, Having gleaned some very useful information from this section of the site, and from VOSA with regard to what I would like to buy and what I would like to do with it I have a question... But first, I'll outline the basis for my enquiry, and I'd be glad of any corrections to my logic you could offer: I am in the market for something along the lines of a Bedford QL, RL or MK/J. Now, if I am right in my interpretation of the rules of classic/private HGV ownership, vehicles manufactured before January 1st 1973 are eligible for a free "Historic Vehicle" tax disc, and those manufactured before January 1st 1960 are also exempt from MoT testing. Provided the vehicle is not used to carry a load. Now, as someone with an interest in all kinds of old junk, and a house extension project on the go, I cannot imagine owning a vehicle with a payload of 3-4 tons and not being able to go and collect spare parts with it, or a pallet of bricks, or a couple of tons of firewood etc. So, to do that legally with a pre-1960 vehicle it would need to be plated and MoT'd, and a pre-1973 vehicle would have to be taxed at the Private HGV rate. Making them less attractive propositions than they might at first appear. Notwithstanding the flak I might generate taking a restored truck and breaking it or wearing out hard to get parts by loading it to the gunwales and slogging it from one side of the country to the other! The MoD appears to be shedding quite a number of Bedford MJs, and even from dealers they appear to be very good value for money indeed at present, with low mileage examples in very good order within my budget. I have direct experience of them (and the earlier MK) from working for a small-time ex-military dealer back in the mid-nineties and they are cheaper now than they were back then! Having spoken at length with the technical officers at VOSA it appears that an example built before 1/4/84 is not required to have side impact bars or a rear under-run bar retrofitted, and one over 25 years old can be MoT'd without a tachograph fitted if used for non-commercial purposes. There is also the option of down-rating the truck to 7499kg gross, in which case one less than 25 years old can be tested without a tachograph, but as I have a full C+E LGV licence I see no point going down that route. So basically, I think I'm going to try and find myself the tidiest pre May 1984 MJ I can within my (yet to be determined) budget. Which brings me to my question... The nice people at VOSA talk about a vehicle built before 1/4/84, and Withams talk about "date into service". I am well aware that stuff bought by the MoD can sit for months or years in storage before being used, and indeed can sit for similar amounts of time with the supplying manufacturer before being handed over to the MoD to then get put into store! So, does "date into service" mean the date it arrived at the MoD, or the date it was handed to a MT workshop? Does anybody know if it is possible to derive a build date from the chassis number? And if so, is there a recognised authority (ie the Motor Heritage people at Gaydon, or Marshalls at Cambridge, or even the Vauxhall factory) that can substantiate that build date for the DVLA and VOSA? Thanks (in advance) for your input, all the best, Glen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utt61 Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 .... and a pre-1973 vehicle would have to be taxed at the Private HGV rate... Not so; a vehcile taxed as historic can be used for load-carrying provided that it is not done in connection with a business or trade, nor for profit nor reward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ives Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 not sure date when mj came into service but my mk is 1972 and was 1 of the last i think so not sure if a mj would come under historic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stone Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 When we got ours, Withams wrote the chassis number incorrectly on the MoD Form 654, so we had to get a date into service independently. If you write to DE&S they will provide you with a date into service from army reg and chassis number but I'm not sure if they could tell you the build date. Ours was first in service early in 1986 so could quite conceivably have been built earlier than the cutoff, but I don't know how you would choose a particularly old one! The military registrations are issued sequentially so you could get something in the 85KDxx/86KDxx range and hope for the best? (Ours was 87KD11). That said, it's not a big job to add side bars and it's a one-off cost for peace of mind. Ours were done by protruck - very professionally - maybe give him a ring? Stone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 not sure date when mj came into service but my mk is 1972 and was 1 of the last i think so not sure if a mj would come under historic David, The MK did not enter service until 1971 and soldiered on until 1982 when the turbo engined MJ came out. If your is one of the last, I would imagine that it might have been from the original contract for 2,000 trucks. Would your ARN letters be FJ ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlenAnderson Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share Posted March 4, 2011 (edited) Hi All, Thanks for your comments so far. I agree, fitting side/rear bars isn't the end of the world. Neither is fitting a tachograph if needs be - or I could down-rate it to under 7.5 tonnes until it's over 25 years old, then up-rate it back to 9.5 afterwards to get round the need for a tachograph. What I am trying to find out is if the build date of the truck can be narrowed down by checking the VIN number. I know that each character of the VIN has a significance, I just don't know what it is! Withams have been very helpful, but really specialise in export and aren't too interested in UK based "problems". All they can supply is the Ministry of Defence "date into service", which whilst adequate for the purposes of registering the trucks, may mean they appear newer than they really are having sat for months or years in storage prior to issue. If, for instance the twelfth letter/number in the 17 figure VIN denotes build year, then If I can crack the code then I can roughly date a vehicle just by looking at it and narrow down my search. What I don't want to do is spend relatively big bucks on a really tidy motor, only to find I have more to spend on side bars and tacho (or downrating) when if I'd bought the one parked next to it I wouldn't have to do anything to it. I'm as yet still unsure of my budget. If my BSA doesn't attract any significant interest I may only have enough money for the bottom end of the market, in which case the year it was built is going to be the least of my worries! I have a couple of feelers out on other forums for info - and it may even be possible to get build data on specific trucks from Vauxhall. Cheers again, Glen. Edited March 4, 2011 by GlenAnderson Idiocy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Its funny I am looking for a MJ last year around this time there were a few down rated to 7.5 tons for sale around £1500 which was a very good price,last week there was one on Ebay asking price £4950 "offers only". Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlenAnderson Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share Posted March 4, 2011 I've just has a very helpful communication from the Bedford CF owners forum. I'm assuming that as their vehicles are generally newer than those I'm accustomed to they're more familiar with the VIN number system than I am. I thought I'd copy it here as I'm sure the information would be helpful at sometime to somebody else. 8th & 9th characters represent model year & manufacturing plant - 1971 - 1T 1972 - 2T 1973 - 3T (CW) 1974 - DW 1975 - EW 1976 - FW 1977 - GW 1978 - HW 1979 - JW 1980 - KW 1981 - LW 1982 - CT 1983 - DT 1984 - ET 1985 - FT 1986 - GT 3rd character is GVW P - 9652 kg R - 11177 kg As I understand it, all the ex-military MKs and MJs are 9652kg gross as they have single wheel rear axles. The civvy versions with the twin wheel rear axles are the ones with the 11,177kg gross weight. Time for me to stop daydreaming and concentrate on the job in hand of sorting and listing all my bike spares for sale on the dreaded eBay! The sooner they're all gone and turned into pennies, the sooner I can start hunting in earnest for my new toy! All the best, and thanks again, Glen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ives Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 David, The MK did not enter service until 1971 and soldiered on until 1982 when the turbo engined MJ came out. If your is one of the last, I would imagine that it might have been from the original contract for 2,000 trucks. Would your ARN letters be FJ ? richard mine is 08fh48 build 1972 dont know if that helps first registed on normal plate 1990 but given a k plate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 richard mine is 08fh48 build 1972 dont know if that helps first registed on normal plate 1990 but given a k plate David, According to a book I am looking at here, the letters FH denotes the contract date of the vehicle, in this case, financial year 1968-69. The same book states the first contract was placed in 1968, which ties up, and deliveries began in 1972. Sorry, the book is British Army Transport & Logistics, by Robert Swan and Geoff Fletcher ( who is Vice Chairman of MVT) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Do VOSA really mean "built before" or "first used"? The latter is the term that normally appears in legislation and for an MV is defined as the date they entered MOD service. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlenAnderson Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share Posted March 4, 2011 Having gone into this at some length with the DVLA and VOSA: Generally, you are quite correct, and the date for "normal" commercial vehicles is that of "first use". Because most trucks do not sit around long after manufacture, and certainly don't sit around long after registration, in practice for most civilian trucks manufacture, registration and first use are as near as the same as makes no difference. Ex-military vehicles fall into the category of needing a "first registration", but are not new. In this instance the DVLA will accept either a MoD date into service as a basis of ageing the vehicle, or a factory dispatch date. They were not concerned which of the two were used. So, although the truck's "first registration" would be 2011, the V5c would be endorsed to the effect "vehicle not new at first registration, declared built 1984". VOSA apply the regulations appropriate to this "declared built" date. The whole area is a minefield. Really easy to make an expensive mistake. All the best, Glen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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