Getting hot between the knees

[haybaggerman]

Evening all

 

I'm not used to the delicacies of driving a 10 ton machine with the engine just in front of my knees so I need an oppinion here please.

 

I have been taking my new saracen out for short trips to check for leaks of any kind as it has been parked up in a museum for some years prior to my purchase. Tonight, I took it for a longer burn, only 10 minutes across the fields, using all gears and lovin it!! However, I'm wondering wether it should get SO hot in such a short amount of time.

 

Water seems to have pushed out past the filler cap (I'm presuming the overflow is blocked by paint and dirt, have yet to check that). This has resulted in some steam coming into the drivers position. I have checked over the engine on idle and found that hot air is being blown through the radiator so thermosat seems to be working. The water in the rad was making lots of hot water sounds if you know what I mean. The water level was okay before takeoff and the fan belts are just fitted and seem to be correctly adjusted.

 

There is water on the engine compartment floor, although she was left out over night in the rain 2 nights ago and we had 8mm, so, if its anything like the ferret this could be rainwater.

 

Also, the wing above the silencer was too hot to rest my hand on for more than a few seconds.

 

Seems like alot of heat for 10 mins?

 

Thanks

 

Paul

 

EDIT temp gauge not working btw

Edited June 30, 2010 by haybaggerman

[haybaggerman]

Hi Oily,

 

Only about two and a half hours away!!!! Pity really, would have liked to have had some like minded company on this one.

 

Heavy lifting no problem, got the kit for that, just time really. Have to start AND finish in one effort or else things slide.

 

What do we think, 3 day job for a couple of £'s worth of seals??

 

Anyway, got to find out for sure yet.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[oily]

about 2 days with no breaks for tea or biscuits...... and yes, I think the seals cost about £7.

A lot of labour-intensive work for a relatively simple repair, with low parts cost. It may well have been one of the reasons why the Army phased these type of vehicles out, and went for newer designs of transmission, such as in the F.V.432's etc.....:-\

[haybaggerman]

Richard, Why would the oil in the flywheel mist, I would imagine it would drip down and exit out of the botom of the bell housing. Is there enough heat there to mist the oil?

 

Oily, are you getting the same symptoms with your flywheel oil leak?

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Richard Farrant]

Richard, Why would the oil in the flywheel mist, I would imagine it would drip down and exit out of the botom of the bell housing. Is there enough heat there to mist the oil?

 

Oily, are you getting the same symptoms with your flywheel oil leak?

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

Paul,

 

I have witnessed this and it is almost like smoke haze, the oil is hot and churning in the flywheel creating a pressure and being forced out of a worn seal (usually), the vanes on the outside of the flywheel create turbulance and it exits from the aperture at the top of the bell housing.

 

There is a lot of heat generated in the flywheel, and low oil level only makes it worse. To be honest, most seal problems are due to driver error. Sticking in too high a gear for road speed, is one and another is leaving in gear with engine running while stationary. These things will lead to the seal cooking and often cracking or burning.

 

regards, Richard

[haybaggerman]

Hi Richard

 

Sounds very much like that is the problem. Will get a tool to remove the filler and then check oil level, although she is driving and pulling well at the moment. I have also removed the cover so the source should be more obvious next time.

 

The previous owner (who bought it from a museum) told me there were drive problems when he first got it, topping up the oil cured it at the time, however, it was then placed on static show and not driven enough to get hot so it sounds like this leak may be anything up to 15 years old!!!

 

What is the modern equivalent oil for topping up please.

 

Thanks

 

Paul

[Richard Farrant]

Hi Richard

 

Sounds very much like that is the problem. Will get a tool to remove the filler and then check oil level, although she is driving and pulling well at the moment. I have also removed the cover so the source should be more obvious next time.

 

The previous owner (who bought it from a museum) told me there were drive problems when he first got it, topping up the oil cured it at the time, however, it was then placed on static show and not driven enough to get hot so it sounds like this leak may be anything up to 15 years old!!!

 

What is the modern equivalent oil for topping up please.

 

Thanks

 

Paul

 

Paul,

 

I always say that if you have to top up with more than a couple of pints, then there is a problem which needs checking. Sometimes it is as simple as leaking plugs, damaged sealing washers.

 

Oil is a ISO10 hydraulic oil, this is much thinner than the ordinary hyd oil in plant, which is about ISO32

[haybaggerman]

Hi Richard,

 

Thankyou again for your help, it is very much appreciated.

 

ISO10, no problem, we use ISO 46? on our plant machinery here, but can get the thinner stuff.

 

Its not the oil loss that bothers me, I would be surprised if this leak isnt a slow one as the drive hasn't been affected yet, its the white cloud that is offputting shall we say, would not want to go on a road run is this condition.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

PS off to get a thai takeaway from the new place, only 10 miles away, close by devon standards

[Richard Farrant]

Its not the oil loss that bothers me, I would be surprised if this leak isnt a slow one as the drive hasn't been affected yet, its the white cloud that is offputting shall we say, would not want to go on a road run is this condition.

 

 

 

 

Hi Paul,

 

Enjoy your meal :-)

 

See how much oil it needs to fill, I think the capacity is about 9 pints. If you are getting a mist, then it sounds like the seal is well on its way out.

[haybaggerman]

Hope springs eternal!!!

 

The level is very low on the fluid flywheel, don't know how low but stuck a piece of wire several inches inside the flywheel and it came back dry, havn't got any iso10 yet to refill.

 

However, on removing the filler plugs they were sealed differently.

 

First one had a copper washer and pfte tape (spelt wrongly I expect). I would not trust that at high temperatures.

Second one had a dowty washer on it, the rubber of which had hardened and shrunk back, on removing the washer over the threads the rubber broke off. I'm wondering wether that type of washer is suitable for the high temps a saracen kicks out.

 

So, tonight we are pressure testing the flywheel after replacing washers with copper ones. Hopefully, that will tell me that the oil was coming out past a filler plug and I don't need to remove the engine. However, the chances of it being good news is low I think.

 

fingers crossed

 

Paul

[Richard Farrant]

So, tonight we are pressure testing the flywheel after replacing washers with copper ones. Hopefully, that will tell me that the oil was coming out past a filler plug and I don't need to remove the engine. However, the chances of it being good news is low I think.

 

 

 

Best of luck Paul.

 

Problem is, although it might be the plug washers that have been leaking, running it with a low level wil cook the seal, so a viscious circle.

[oily]

morris Lubricants do an excellent, very reasonably priced equivalent of OM13... it's called Liquimatic, there's a no.1, and a no.2... so I'll recheck and confirm which it is....:-D

[haybaggerman]

I've ordered some iso 10 but its not coming till mid next week,

 

As far as cooking the seals is concerned, yes, that would be about right wouldn't it? But, I only ran it for 10 minutes at a time so fingers crossed. Still, if the engine has to come out then I'll get a chance to paint the engine bay and do a few other jobs to prevent future issues, like service/ replace hoses etc etc

 

In the meantime, we are going to drill out a 1" bsp blanking plug and cobble it to a radiator pressure test kit fitting to do a pressure test too. What do you think 15-20 lbs/sq" for test pressure?

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[haybaggerman]

Hi Oily

 

Just had a look at morris lubricants website. Are they pretty quick? If I could get something by the weekend then I'd cancell my current order.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Toolman]

Hello Paul

 

I have ordered all my oils from morris through the website. They are an excellent company. I normally order on an evening, they despatch the very next day, then the delivery usually comes the day after that. Can't really be quicker than that.

 

I've recently bought a 25 liter drum of Liquimatic No 1 ISO 10 Hydraulic Oil for the fluid flywheel in the ferret, exactly what you need too. ISO10. It's very thin stuff. Unfortunately the 20% discount offer has finished, however their full price for a 25 liter drum isn't too bad anyway.

 

I'm glad I checked the flywheel because the ferret needed about 2 pints. The washer on the plug I removed was a dowty type. I re-used it and touchwood it's not leaking.

 

Cheers

 

Matt

[Degsy]

Hi Oily

 

Just had a look at morris lubricants website. Are they pretty quick? If I could get something by the weekend then I'd cancell my current order.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

Hi Paul, if you go on Morris Oils website they should list a supplier local to you, prices are usually lower than buying direct.

[haybaggerman]

Thanks for the heads up re: morris lubricants, the ISO 10 turned up last night.

 

I filled up the flywheel (needed a couple of pints or so) and ran the engine for 5 minutes, stationary with a few boughts of revs. Checked it today (20 hours later) and the oil level has not moved. Will get a chance to take her out for a spin this evening to see if the issue is persisting. Fingers crossed the new washers on the filler plugs have sorted the problem and it isnt the seal. Not feeling that lucky though.......

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[haybaggerman]

Right, taken her out, for around another 10 minutes, and actually got some life out of the temp gauge, thats a first. However, everytime I put my foot down the temperature dropped a little before returning, it was showing at about one notch off of max., then after I rev'ed up a straight bit of field the needle fell and stayed low. Anyone else had these kind of issues?

 

Also, when the heat was up she spat at me a bit over the bonnet, a bit of water coming out past the filler cap. I think we are having a power struggle.

 

However, the main event was that the "mist" didn't return!!! Tomorrow I'll check the oil level in the fluid flywheel again and then I'll know, or at least I'll know its okay for 10 minutes at a time now.

 

Fingers crossed

 

Paul

[haybaggerman]

Oil level still at the top this morning

 

When I was testing it last night there was a loud kind of bang from behind, like a hydraulic line under pressure blowing. Thought "oh s**t" whats gone wrong now, anchored up, engine off and scooted round behind the drivers seat.

 

Luckily, I hadn't secured my paint pot full of spanners down and they had fallen off and spread across the metal floor.

 

Few

 

Paul

[Tony B]

And how much weight di you suddenly loose? :-D

[haybaggerman]

And how much weight di you suddenly loose? :-D

 

Yes, I think I dropped my sump that time

[haybaggerman]

The road run is on sunday and I don't think she is ready. The exhaust silencer has been welded and also, as a temporary measure we have bandaged the joint between the manifold and next exhaust part with loads of layers of gun gum, bandages and wire. This has resulted in a much better sound from the engine, and a better drive.

 

but.....

 

has anyone else used this stuff, I'm finding it is smoking, havn't gone far with it yet, but the bandages seem to be going white in places (burning or curing, I cant say), is this normal, will it stop after a while or is the saracen manifold too much for this material?

 

Any insights VERY much appreciated as I don't want to be towed home behind the tractor with my tail between my legs

 

Thanks

 

Paul

[MiketheBike]

I used this exhaust bandage on the ferret on the joints between the manifolds and the connector pipes, works a treat and been on there for over a year. I found it keeps that flexibility between the joints but muffles that blowing

 

Cannot remember where I got it, but this is the same:

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/20M-Exhaust-Manifold-Heat-Wrap-Bandage-20-SS-CABLE-TIE-/130419337428?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM#ht_2238wt_1021

[haybaggerman]

Thanks Mike

 

If (when) this one comes off I might give that a go, or maybe a proper repair over winter........

 

No idea how far she'll get today, fingers crossed

 

Paul

[Tony B]

If you have room, don't forget the split bean tin a load of exhaust paste, and a couple of Jubille clips! :-D Works wonders as a tempoary repair. Bonus is as it is meatal to metal, goes through MOT!

[oily]

believe me.... you woudn't want to be towed either!... 10 tons, no power steering, and the thing WILL NOT steer unless wheels are turning, and even then you'll have needed to have eaten a whole pallet of Shredded Wheat to attempt steering it!, ... and unless the towing vehicle weighs in at least twice as much as a Saracen, you'll pull it off the road too when you try to negotiate a sharp bend in the road!:nono: