Getting hot between the knees

[haybaggerman]

Evening all

 

I'm not used to the delicacies of driving a 10 ton machine with the engine just in front of my knees so I need an oppinion here please.

 

I have been taking my new saracen out for short trips to check for leaks of any kind as it has been parked up in a museum for some years prior to my purchase. Tonight, I took it for a longer burn, only 10 minutes across the fields, using all gears and lovin it!! However, I'm wondering wether it should get SO hot in such a short amount of time.

 

Water seems to have pushed out past the filler cap (I'm presuming the overflow is blocked by paint and dirt, have yet to check that). This has resulted in some steam coming into the drivers position. I have checked over the engine on idle and found that hot air is being blown through the radiator so thermosat seems to be working. The water in the rad was making lots of hot water sounds if you know what I mean. The water level was okay before takeoff and the fan belts are just fitted and seem to be correctly adjusted.

 

There is water on the engine compartment floor, although she was left out over night in the rain 2 nights ago and we had 8mm, so, if its anything like the ferret this could be rainwater.

 

Also, the wing above the silencer was too hot to rest my hand on for more than a few seconds.

 

Seems like alot of heat for 10 mins?

 

Thanks

 

Paul

 

EDIT temp gauge not working btw

Edited June 30, 2010 by haybaggerman

[haybaggerman]

good advice, thought I'd have to be towed a couple of times there, but she came through!!!

 

The issue was heat. As soon as she got properly hot (now I know what you mean about cooking your left foot) she started to mis fire. In fact we had to stop by the side of the road for half an hour to let her cool because hills were becoming impossible. Then, as soon as she had cooled down she sounded fine again and went on until getting hot again, by which time we pulled into the field at Cobaton.

 

Just about to leave and I thought I'd check the engine and water levels. Water right to the top. Engine oil right to the mark, but above this were a few inches of white froth. Head ghasket thought I? So I let a little oil out of the drain plug to see what the situation was, and the oil was clean, no water. Maybe the froth is just condensation as this is the first run she has had for many years. Right then, head off, fingers crossed.

 

On the way back same story as on the way. A lengthy stop to cool down about half way and ran poorly when hot. When I thankfully got back to the yard she wouldn't start again, the starter wouldn't even turn like a connection was lost. An hour and a half of cooling later and she started right up and drove nicley again, engine sounding smooth.

 

At least the exhaust bandage held out!!

 

I recon possibly the condenser or vapour lock? Definitely heat related.

 

I had left the cover off the fluid flywheel for the trip and the heat coming from there also cooked the left leg. Tomorrow I'll check all levels and see what has happened, if anything.

 

Cheers for now,

a very fatigued

Paul

[rbrtcrowther]

Hate to be the bringer of bad news but it sounds like it went tight and the starter woulden't turn it :shocked: Might even be getting so hot the heads are warping and letting gasses pass inti the water jacket then on cooling sealing back up. Is your water pump working? has the impeller fallen off? Not really familier with your engine but hope its just a quick fix:blush:

[haybaggerman]

The trouble is it could be a number of things. The flud flywheel needed about a pint of oil to top up so thats bad news. The rad is certainly pushing out alot of heat so water pump is working at least up to a point.

 

May be she is running rich, that would make her run hotter. Will take some more investigation I think, although the froth was probably condensation due to not having a run out for about 15 years prior.

 

Hmmmm............

[Richard Farrant]

The trouble is it could be a number of things. The flud flywheel needed about a pint of oil to top up so thats bad news. The rad is certainly pushing out alot of heat so water pump is working at least up to a point.

 

May be she is running rich, that would make her run hotter. Will take some more investigation I think, although the froth was probably condensation due to not having a run out for about 15 years prior.

 

Hmmmm............

 

Hi Paul,

 

I am not really sure what you have done to the Saracen so far, and was only just aware that it has not been run for 15 years or so. It might be possible that the ignition is retarded, this would make it run hot..........also could be clogged radiator, sticking thermostat, dragging brakes, etc.

 

Oh and when you drained the sump looking for water.........as the scavenge pump pretty much clears the sump, any water will be in the bottom of the oil tank.

 

Richard

[haybaggerman]

Hi Richard

 

Thanks for the input, I was hoping you might pick this one up:)

 

I drained a little oil through the plate at the very front of the hull, which I thought was the oil tank, but I am happy to be corrected here.

 

I was thinking of fitting electronic ignition, it has certainly helped the ferret along.

 

hadn't thought of dragging breaks,

 

Thanks

 

Paul

[Richard Farrant]

Hi Richard

 

Thanks for the input, I was hoping you might pick this one up:)

 

I drained a little oil through the plate at the very front of the hull, which I thought was the oil tank, but I am happy to be corrected here.

 

 

 

 

Paul,

 

You are correct, it was the oil tank you were draining........I was thinking of another vehicle. :embarrassed:

[rbrtcrowther]

I might be a bit confused but i thiught a lean fuel mix would cause overheating:red: but it's been ages since i played with petrol engines. hows your oil pressure? the oil helps to cool engines down too has it got a cooler? We had a fordson major with a six cylinder in it and all of a sudden it decided to start getting hot for no reason at all, even when it was parked in the sea half way up the block it over was overheating. managed to make it last the bank holiday through nursing it and leaving it in the sea. was unable to cool it down at the end of the day and when i stopped it it never turnned again....solid. no explanation and unecnomical to spend hours looking into it.:-(

[haybaggerman]

I might be a bit confused but i thiught a lean fuel mix would cause overheating:red: but it's been ages since i played with petrol engines. hows your oil pressure? the oil helps to cool engines down too has it got a cooler? We had a fordson major with a six cylinder in it and all of a sudden it decided to start getting hot for no reason at all, even when it was parked in the sea half way up the block it over was overheating. managed to make it last the bank holiday through nursing it and leaving it in the sea. was unable to cool it down at the end of the day and when i stopped it it never turnned again....solid. no explanation and unecnomical to spend hours looking into it.:-(

 

Hi

 

Yes, it has an oil cooler mounted above the engine, sorry to hear about the fordson, these old tractors are going up in price fast, probably because they are sought after by the explosion of small holders. Maybe the cooling system needed a good flush through?

 

I think I'll get the thermosat out next and boil it in a pan, see how it opens.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[rbrtcrowther]

Good luck with you efforts hope is a silly little fault you find. We had the whole cooling system in bits rad, pump, block flushed oil filter removed for a while oil pressures checked,head and block checked, timing checked manifolds checked. 10 mins fast tickover cooked it. Got so hot it needed 1/4 throttle to keep running it was so tight and even with a hose in the filler still would not cool down, then we tryed to see if it would tick over and it locked solid....game over:embarrassed: We had no tractors left and it had to be used and i managed to keep it going for 5 hours with bottles of water and leaving it in the sea for as long as possible. but the las run killed it and just got too tight. No explanation:embarrassed:

[haybaggerman]

Hi

 

The temp gauge on both the ferret and saracen go straight to full temp when the ignition is switched on. I have found that part of the cable going to the ferret temp gauge has been crushed so I assume it has gone open ciruit there.

 

However, on the saracen no such obviousness. I have checked the wiring inside the fitting at the sensor end hoping that may have been pulled but it is okay. The symptoms persist if I disconnect from the sensor entirely so its not the sensor itself either.

 

Does this mean I have to lie unside down under the dash and start looking in there?

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Tony B]

DON' T DO THIS ALONE. Six hours stuck with your ankles round your ears can cause back problems.

[Toolman]

DON' T DO THIS ALONE. Six hours stuck with your ankles round your ears can cause back problems.

 

I agree. I've been off work now for 10 weeks with a prolapsed disc! I never had one before I got the ferret! (although I reckon 10 hours a day stuck in front of a PC at work hasn't helped)

[haybaggerman]

Right, if I'm not back in 24 hours send help and some sandwiches

[Tony B]

WANTED: For Genreral maintinence and repair work on military vehicles. One double jointed mechanical and electrically trained Octopus. Slim arms an advantage. Strength of Samason a must! Salary two packets of Custard creams and a tin of sardines.

[haybaggerman]

WANTED: For Genreral maintinence and repair work on military vehicles. One double jointed mechanical and electrically trained Octopus. Slim arms an advantage. Strength of Samason a must! Salary two packets of Custard creams and a tin of sardines.

 

failing that an blonde lingery model to feed custasrd creams to a trapped amateur mechanic with a dislocated spine, either or really

 

So, anyone got any clues about these temp gauges???

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[oily]

yes,....my saracen one does exactly the same thing,..... and my fuel guage 'lies', too.....:-(

[Tony B]

Is there a voltage dropper somewhere in circuit?

[haybaggerman]

yes,....my saracen one does exactly the same thing,..... and my fuel guage 'lies', too.....:-(

 

My fuel gauge doesn't lie, its just of a positive disposition thats all.

[haybaggerman]

Is there a voltage dropper somewhere in circuit?

 

I don't think so

[haybaggerman]

Right , I've got a RR workshop manual for b series engines and it says that overheating could be caused by:-

 

loss of coolant

faulty thermosatat

faulty coolant pump

weak mixture

faulty lubrication

faulty ignition timing

incorrect tappet clearances

fouled coolant system.

 

Today I had the b80 idling for around 5 minutes or so after topping up the coolant levels. The pipe to the top of the rad became very hot quite quickly, too hot to rest your hand on for very long so I recon the thermosat and water pump must be working reasonably effectively. The pipe returning from the bottom of the rad became warm so the rad must be cooling the water and again water pump must be circulating water. Are these fair assumptions? Seems to be ticking off numbers 1, 2, 3 and 8 in the list.

 

I tried to get the thermostat out but couldn't get the housing apart, didn't want to damage it by prying it too hard.

 

How do you tell if there is a weak mixture? The altitude control is in the correct position.

 

Thanks for any ideas

 

Paul

[haybaggerman]

After some consultation I have decided to flush the radiator out.

 

I just wondered whether the only effective way is to do it with the radiator out and upside down because that is the plan at the moment, nice job for the weekend if I can get the time. Its a pity because the radiator was taken out by the previous owner for fitting the new belts before I picked it up but I don't think he flushed the system

 

Any suggestions involving NOT taking out the rad would be most welcome.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[rbrtcrowther]

I take it there is a great big engine driven fan dragging air through the radiator .... if so with the engine idling i would have thought the bottom hose would stay cold. The thermostat should be closed while the engine warms up then the crack open letting the water into the rad, The influx of cold water into the block with cause the thermostat to close and the flow through the rad will stop and the air will cool the water down so the bottom hose should be almost cold. when you start blasting up hills is when things will warm up. can you see a flow of water if you run it with the rad cap off? There shoud be next to no flow when cold and definatly no air bubbles.

[montie]

Hi Paul, has a blown head gasket or worst, a cracked head been discounted yet?

 

You have probably already tested for this and this is just my two cents worth. Some of our local radiator shops has some sort of attachment that is put on top of the radiator filler cap receptacle (cap removed before starting) once the engine has reached operating temperature. The mixture inside the attachment then reacts with any CO2 in the water system, indicated by a colour change. The CO2 in the water, if any can only come from the combustion chambers, thus indicating a gas passage somewhere in the engine. So, if no colour change, you dont have a problem in that area.

 

Regards.

[haybaggerman]

Took the saracen out for a run yesterday. The new temp sender unit is showing that she is holding temp at around 160 degrees. However, the problem we had was with power from the batteries.

 

She didn't want to start first of all with the batteries beginning to die, but started anyway. After 10 mins tick over while we checked a few things over I stopped the engine, only to find that the starter showed signs of having no connection, no click even. Persumed started connection lost.

 

So, desperate to take her out to see if the overheating was actually occurring we started her with the starting handle and went for a trip out. All went well until returning home after about 5 miles (during which she was starting to lose power a little) when, approaching a right hand turn everything died. Would not start on the handle and the starter was still dead. Persumed the drop in revs approaching the turning lost me any charge from the generator.

 

Got a lift back home and put the batteries on full charge for 20 mins. took them back and fitted them up. After that the saracen started on the starter and flew home, driving really really nicely.

 

Obviously the generator isn't charging, in fact the dash light only dims and doesn't go out until around 2500 revs. I was wondering whether my previous problems are due to this and not overheating at all. Whenever I pulled over to let the engine cool I found she ran alot better afterwards for a while. But perhaps that was due to the new batteries recovering? Certainly had the same dead starter symptoms after a trip last year until she had sat a while.

 

Anyone else had similar issues with these machines?

 

Cheers

 

Paul