Vulcan XH558

[VULCANFREAK]

 

 

Help save a fantastic British project

[antarmike]

Sorry but my persoal opinion is that enough money has been thrown at this plane and it is time to call a halt.

The project may be a worthy one, but with the few airframe hours left on this Vulcan I would question just how worthy it is.

 

There is plenty to criticise about the way the project has been manged, and which plughole most have the money given so far has been poured down.

 

[agripper]

Have to agree with you there. love to see the Vulcan in the air but the amount of money constantly being begged for and teh emotional black mail being used I can't cope with. I wonder how much would be needed if they only had to pay for teh maintainance side only rather than having 20 full time admin staff. Ontop of teh engineering team. If I am wrong with these figures sorry, I am sire someone will correct me. I know its an expensive bit of kit to keep going but if teh southend one is kept for much less then why not 558.

[AlienFTM]

Sad but probably true.

[VULCANFREAK]

Er dont we all throw good money after bad on our MV`s??

[honeileen]

There is a big difference in price in keeping an MV on the road or static compared keeping a Vulcan or any other airplane static or flying. Shame the RAF didnt take the project on for the historic flight, but i guess with cutbacks on defence spending and some common sense by a civil servants for once they saw the light!!

 

I will go and put my flack jacket on now:-D

 

Christian

[antarmike]

There is a big difference in price in keeping an MV on the road or static compared keeping a Vulcan or any other airplane static or flying. Shame the RAF didnt take the project on for the historic flight, but i guess with cutbacks on defence spending and some common sense by a civil servants for once they saw the light!!

 

I will go and put my flack jacket on now:-D

 

Christian

 

The difference is all the aircraft in the BBMF have a long term future. The Aircraft are rebuildable, and maintainable for many many years to come. The Vulcan has a few hundred hours left to fly and then it has to become static.

 

Likewise hopefully the vehicles we throw money at have a long future ahead of them mechanically.

 

The Vulcan has no long term future, it has two or three years flight then it is Fatigue life will hane expired on its airframe, and there is no way whatsoever that money could ever be forthcoming in the quantities required to jig up and remake a new airframe.

 

Most of the money spent so far has been on wages and major systems overhauls. The actual structure of the plane has hardly been touched, and what has been done is relatively easy to get to and renew. Whole areas of the airframe are impossible to reach, even to asses their condition, yet alone to replace parts if needed.

 

In two or three years time the Aviation authorities will condemn the Aircraft to a life on the ground because all the Hours on the airframe have been used up.

Edited February 4, 2010 by antarmike

[ian2b]

Er dont we all throw good money after bad on our MV`s??

 

Agreed we do throw money at our MV's but at the end of the day we get to drive them. Can't see them letting me fly the vulcan. :-D

[honeileen]

I agree with you Mike, Spits and bits are smaller and easier to maintain/rebuild than the bigger birds. The Lanc has a good few hours to go since its last major a couple of years back.

But like everything the RAF at the time had tools and facilities to keep the Vulcan flying BUT AT A COST! they chose to pull out of flying it because of this cost of maintaining it. I myself have pumped thousands of gallons of fuel into 558 and 426 when they were still in RAF service in the 80,s. I take my hat off to the guys that restored XH558 but it is an impossible dream for a civvy outfit to keep it going. Im just saying what shame the RAF could not afford to keep her.

 

Christian

[simonsfotos]

As anyone hhas looked at my site will know, I do a lot of air show photography and the Vulcan has featured on several occasions in the last couple of years.

 

As an aviation nut, my feeling is this and I know a lot of aviation enthusiasts disagree vehemently with me on this. Yes it has been nice to see one bakc in the air BUT the display is nothing like what it used to be and to my mind does not merit the total disruption that the infamous 'Vulcan Effect' that has appeared at shows around the country where it is due or rumoured to appear.

 

As has been said, millions has been pumped into getting/keeping it in the air and the begging bowl is thrust in our faces along with threats of 'if you don't cough up we'll ground her'. It is the most expensive flying item bar none to book for an air show and the operators try to have us believe that if it isn't booked then a show is the worse because of it.

 

There are operators of warbirds all over the country who keep us entertained with their wonderful aircraft, but they don't go to the national press bleating about being penniless. They get on with what they love...flying their aircraft.

 

As an example, the B-17 Flying Fortress 'Sally B' which has been based at Duxford for 30 years, has had no end of problems with engines over the past couple of years, but Sally and the Team with their enthusiastic supporters got on with it and she is now back in the air in tribute to the American flyers who were based in this country. Was there threats of 'We need your money or we'll ground her' splattered all over the national papers and TV news? No! This dedicated band go on with it. Enthusiasts, whereas...

 

...The Vulcan, a bottomless money pit which certainly won't be flying for anywhere near as long as 'Sally B' has graced our skies.

[Jon8910]

Unfortunatly, I have to agree with Simon, much as I want to see the Vulcan continue to fly, how much more can they expect us to pay out. The RAF sold it off in 1993 because it was becoming too costly to maintain as a display aircraft.

[antarmike]

The wrong Vulcan was chosen for the project, This Vulcan was grounded by the RAF because major work was due very shortly but the short airframe life did not justify the expense of a major systems service it was due. Had the Southend Vulcan been prepared for flight, its long term servicibility was far better as the airframe had lots lots more hours before its "death date" Putting lots of money into something that will be around for a long time is more sensible than putting lots of money into something that only ever had five years flying time left to run when the 588 project began.

 

I feel we were all conned into giving for something we thought we were preserving for posterity, I at least thought if we get this flying agian it will remain flying, instead we were funding a "let's grab what money we can out of this plane before its fecked, but at least we'll all have very well paid jobs for the next five years, whether it flies or not...." Scheme.

Edited February 6, 2010 by antarmike

[Adam Elsdon]

I saw the Vulcan fly at the Leuchars show last September, it started off promising as it went near vertical on take off, and then it flew around gently for a while before landing.

 

Not at all like the displays of old, ground shaking as they hauled it around shrieking, engines lit vertical on its wing tip, with the bomb bay doors open.

 

Given that it hasnt any airframe hours left, they could at least send it out with a decent showing before its grounded. There are plenty of other more worthy causes i'd put my money towards.

[antarmike]

I saw the Vulcan fly at the Leuchars show last September, it started off promising as it went near vertical on take off, and then it flew around gently for a while before landing.

 

Not at all like the displays of old, ground shaking as they hauled it around shrieking, engines lit vertical on its wing tip, with the bomb bay doors open.

 

Given that it hasnt any airframe hours left, they could at least send it out with a decent showing before its grounded. There are plenty of other more worthy causes i'd put my money towards.

The NHS don't give heart transplants to 95 year olds, because if people lived to be 100, they haven't got enough potential life to justify the cost of the procedure, If you are 57 you have a chance of getting a heart.

 

This Vulcan is sadly 99, not 95 let her die quietly .....

[agripper]

we transplanted a 92 year old. It goes on tissue type and general health. A transplant has an expected life of 5 years more if your lucky, has to do with the drugs used. But do agree with your point. I remember the display that the Sunderland Vulcan gave prior to her last landing! The point about MV's is a good one and I don't ask others to pay for the work. Must be where I'm going wrong!!!!LOL

[agripper]

Kent to add that the concord would have been a more historic aircraft to keep flying.no one else has ever done anything like it.

[antarmike]

we transplanted a 92 year old. It goes on tissue type and general health. A transplant has an expected life of 5 years more if your lucky, has to do with the drugs used. But do agree with your point. I remember the display that the Sunderland Vulcan gave prior to her last landing! The point about MV's is a good one and I don't ask others to pay for the work. Must be where I'm going wrong!!!!LOL

The figures I made up out of my head, just to show how unlikely it would be to get the Vulcan flying after its "death day", and how throwing tons of money at it isn't inmy opinion worth it.....I wasn't expecting to be taken literally!!!

[Hawk]

It is a shame to see such a large amount of money thrown at a project which never had a long term future.

Several family members of mine worked at Cobhams and built parts for Vulcan refueling systems and have themselves donated a packet of money for the project, they 'own' several landing lights and other bits and bobs, done through the sponser a part scheme.

The cancellations at Yeovilton and Waddington saddenned them and many others deeply and it got to the case where everyone was getting a bit peeved off they hadn't seen it fly. The first view of XH558 came at RIAT 09, were we all elated to see it. It really was quite an event.

The problem is many of the people we spoke to at the show, (other enthusiasts) were fed up with the 'guilt tripping' and emotional plea's which extended to the commentry as the display was ongoing. Million's of pounds have been allocated via the National Lottery and sponsorship/donations, where has it all gone if the airframe has only got three years left to fly, which says to me significant studies were not carried out.

Also how has that huge sum of money only lasted until now? What has it been spent on? Admin and bureacracy - I expect so.

If the RAF couldn't keep it going, then what hope did the project have? There seems to have been no long term thought gone into this.

Personally, I agree with antarmike, they have had there dough and failed to use it properly, they have had alot of money out of me, and its hard to see where it all went.

The public will not donate any more to this 'White Elephant' and I don't blame them.

Vulcan to the Sky has had it's lot and now must accept the inevitable and secure the airframe's future as a static entity.

Sorry for the long rant, just my feelings on the situation.

[agripper]

does anyone know what the anual cost for a bird like the Lanc is? I know that fuel is a big chunk and also the insurance then add on maintance ? Are there any canberas flying yet? Not sure how these would cost against the vulcan . Would like to see the Shackleton fly that air atlantique have but don't think it will in the UK .

[Adrian Barrell]

Given that it hasnt any airframe hours left, they could at least send it out with a decent showing before its grounded. There are plenty of other more worthy causes i'd put my money towards.

 

 

It's the fatigue index that's the problem rather than hours per se. High energy manouevers use that up far quicker than gentle flying.

[simonsfotos]

Yes i would be wonderful to see 40,000 rivets flying in close formation again! (The nickname given to the Shackleton by the way!) However, the one at Coventry will never fly again due to some things that affected the whole fleet in the end, including a full re-spar needed. That one is however ground run on occasions and is looked after by a dedicated team. The financial cost is way above what the Classic Flight - the part of the Atlantique operation that has the classic aircraft under its wing so tp speak (this includes Venoms, Canberras, Meteor, DC3s, Doves, Rapides, Vampires and Twin Pioneer among others). The other Shack that they had was flying in the US and it was hoped that it could be returned to this country and continue flying. However, basically due to the CAA (otherwise known as the Campaign Against Aviation!) saying NO, it was retired and is now at the Pima Air Museum in the US and is very likely to stay there.

[antarmike]

Yes i would be wonderful to see 40,000 rivets flying in close formation again! (The nickname given to the Shackleton by the way!) However, the one at Coventry will never fly again due to some things that affected the whole fleet in the end, including a full re-spar needed. That one is however ground run on occasions and is looked after by a dedicated team. The financial cost is way above what the Classic Flight - the part of the Atlantique operation that has the classic aircraft under its wing so tp speak (this includes Venoms, Canberras, Meteor, DC3s, Doves, Rapides, Vampires and Twin Pioneer among others). The other Shack that they had was flying in the US and it was hoped that it could be returned to this country and continue flying. However, basically due to the CAA (otherwise known as the Campaign Against Aviation!) saying NO, it was retired and is now at the Pima Air Museum in the US and is very likely to stay there.

 

The BBMF Lancaster was resparred with a Shackleton Spar, wasn't it? If the Lanaster can be re-sparred, it is tecnically possible to respar a Shackleton, surely?

[Jon8910]

The BBMF Lancaster was resparred with a Shackleton Spar, wasn't it? If the Lanaster can be re-sparred, it is tecnically possible to respar a Shackleton, surely?

 

The Shackelton has many Lancaster parts. BBMF received many many boxes of Shack parts when Woodford stopped doing the majors in the early 80’s (so many we built a low dividing wall across the hangar with the boxes!) and even more when 8sqn ceased flying Shacks in the early 90’s. They are still sorting thru them and cataloguing them even now!

There were rumours BBMF would get a Shackelton to fly after retirement for a while, but even back then, the costs, practicality etc soon stopped that. (And also BBMF was to get the then flying Mosquito RR299 from Bae, but that’s another story! )

Yes, like the Vulcan, a Shack could fly if you throw enough money at it, but hopefully with better marketing skills! :-D

Incidentally the costs of keeping BBMF flying have risen again in the local press recently, which has prompted a quote from them on their website.

[Adam Elsdon]

we transplanted a 92 year old. It goes on tissue type and general health. A transplant has an expected life of 5 years more if your lucky, has to do with the drugs used. But do agree with your point. I remember the display that the Sunderland Vulcan gave prior to her last landing! The point about MV's is a good one and I don't ask others to pay for the work. Must be where I'm going wrong!!!!LOL

 

I bunked off school to go see the Vulcan land at Sunderland!, as i remember, the runway was only just long enough to take it, it came in and touched down on the piano keys at the end and was really slamming its anchors on to slow down.

[griff66]

early to mid 80,s one if not the last formula 1 grand prix at brands hatch vulcan did a fly past at lunch time came towards us then stood on its tail and went straight up my girlfriend started crying at the sound level and vibration ,still one of the most impressive things i,ve seen,:cool2: