recymech66 Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 (edited) Quote: Anyway back to the original subject. Is there any British recovery chains suitable for the job ??? Yes, the ones you already have, if you have a means of connecting them (and you do as you have the shackles) they are more than up to the task you are asking them to do. If your not happy using them then go for something like these which I said earlier will be perfect for you. http://www.red-bhw.com/polyester-round-sling-2m-circumference-4-tonne-1687.html £8 each and they come in different lengths, get a couple of new shackles from the same company all complete with certs. Or if you want some real "British recovery chains" I can get you a couple 30 Tonne recovery chains but it'll take 2 of you to carry them:-D Edited January 19, 2010 by recymech66 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritineye Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 I have been tasked to a couple of jobs over my time as a recy mech were they have failed but this is a very rare occasion. When I got my Arrows 1 3/4 ton trailer, the four smallish bolts fixing the coupling to the drawbar were only half way through the nuts underneath, they were tight but only just a couple of threads and painted over! It wouldn't have taken much abuse to have come off, chains would have helped here I think. Crossed chains/strops will keep the trailer following nicely behind the towing vehicle if it becomes detached, and the trailer will gently nudge the towing vehicle, when stopping. Much better in my opinion than relying on a cable to pull the brakes on evenly with a completely free trailer, trust me I do know this to be true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recymech66 Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 When I got my Arrows 1 3/4 ton trailer, the four smallish bolts fixing the coupling to the drawbar were only half way through the nuts underneath. Possibly had been removed for some repair or some reason and the bolts replaced with unsuitable ones, I personally think it would take some right abuse for a Nato towing eye and pintle to shear/break/become detached without there being a "degree of driver error" most of the jobs I've been to which have resulted in a trailer breaking free are a result of the driver being rather silly and not ensuring the pin is correctly inserted into the towing pintle. IMO if breakaway chains were needed then the law would dictate that the MoD and Military vehicle enthusiasts have them fitted otherwise they would fail REME MEI and/or MoT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gritineye Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 Not disputing anything you say recymech, but I think sometimes the enthusiast wants a bit of belt and braces as the buck stops with him and he picks up the bill, unlike the person who fitted my hitch. It makes him feel safer, nothing wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recymech66 Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 Not disputing anything you say recymech, but I think sometimes the enthusiast wants a bit of belt and braces as the buck stops with him and he picks up the bill, unlike the person who fitted my hitch. It makes him feel safer, nothing wrong with that. Yep, a fair point I can't argue with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 (edited) I fail to understand how you think it is possible to close the catch, and the put in the seperate sprung pin, entereing it through the hole in the body, and seeing the far end of the pin coming out the other side of the body, without it going through the hole in the catch. Quote: I know of a Dutch guy who came over for W&P in his M35 and M105 trailer and he believed he had attached the trailer correctly using the NATO Hitch, he had used the locking pin but it hadn’t lined up properly but it looked as though it had. It was about 20 miles up the road when he felt a nudging feeling on the back of his truck. The Pin was the correct pin for the M Series style tow hitch and the jaw was closed but the pin passed under the locking mech and passed out the other side giving the look of a fully secured tow hitch. Lock plate closed and pin correctly inserted through all three holes Pin inserted through holes in body, but passing under lock bar. Hole in lock bar where pin should be clearly visible. I haven't closed the "Safety pin" to help with clarity of the picture, but even when this is closed hole in lockbar is still clearly visible. By no stretch of the imagination could you say the bottom picture looks as if the pin is correctly inserted and everything is locked as it should be. Note in top photo that the the end of the lockbar is fully covered by the body, preventing the jaw opening. Note in bottom photo that only a couple of mm overlap is present between end of bar and the body. Edited January 19, 2010 by antarmike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 (edited) I fail to understand how you think it is possible to close the catch, and the put in the seperate sprung pin, entereing it through the hole in the body, and seeing the far end of the pin coming out the other side of the body, without it going through the hole in the catch. Quote: I know of a Dutch guy who came over for W&P in his M35 and M105 trailer and he believed he had attached the trailer correctly using the NATO Hitch, he had used the locking pin but it hadn’t lined up properly but it looked as though it had. It was about 20 miles up the road when he felt a nudging feeling on the back of his truck. The Pin was the correct pin for the M Series style tow hitch and the jaw was closed but the pin passed under the locking mech and passed out the other side giving the look of a fully secured tow hitch. Nato hitch properly closed and pin inserted through the three holes. Nato hitch with the pin passing below the lock bar and therefore missing the middle hole on the lock bar. The lock bar is held far above the back of the body, and the jaw is not locked in any way. We are supposed to believe the dutch guy drove 20 miles in this condition before loosing his trailer. If he set out like this he wouldn't have got 2 miles! Two more pictures, see if you can decide which of these is locked and the pin passes through all three holes, and which on the lockbar is resting on the pin, missing the hole. As I said earlier, I find it difficult to believe the Dutch guy could have failed to fully close the lock bar, and inserted the pin such that it passed under the locking mechanism, without it being blatently obvious. Sorry, I still don't see how it is possible to close the locking bar correctly, presumably lining up holes in body and lock, and then put a pin through the lined up holes but the straight pin goes through the first hole, misses the next one, then goes through the third! The locking catch is a good fit in the slot in the body so the gap between each of the three lined up holes is less than 0.5 mm. but somehow the pin misses the middle hole. How can this be? I am trying to understand this, but at the moment I can't. Is there any chance , Maverick,that you can supply a picture of how this can be achieved and what the assembly looks like when this happens? I appreciate you are describing an American hitch, and I have only access to British hitches. That is why I feel a photo of the American hitch, with the pin passing under the lock bar would be a good idea. We have a lot of owners of American vehicles, and if this CAN happen and not be noticed it is best to bring the matter to a far wider audience. Edited January 19, 2010 by antarmike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinsaunders06 Posted January 19, 2010 Share Posted January 19, 2010 hello stuart, for peace of mind if nothing else when i put reo on suspended tow on wrecker i use strops and cross diagonal them and have also been assured they are plenty strong enough, also the strops are more flexible as i can route to an ideal length. martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Posted January 19, 2010 Author Share Posted January 19, 2010 You pictures show exactly what happened to the Dutch guy, add to the fact that the tow hitch on a M35 is tucked more under the rear of the body between the two bumperetts so its harder to see it clearly like in your photos and add to that it was either late Pm or Early Am when he left his home for W&P he admitted he should of checked it better. So at the end of the day the best hitch in the world is only as good as the person using it. We all make mistakes and as Gritineye says "I think sometimes the enthusiast wants a bit of belt and braces as the buck stops with him and he picks up the bill, unlike the person who fitted my hitch. It makes him feel safer, nothing wrong with that" Gritineye has it spot on, that's all I'm trying to do add a bit of security and safety. Thanks to everyone who has helped answer my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 The only thing I don't understand is the locking bar is spring loaded and closes on its own. I had to hold it up, deliberately to get the pin to pass underneath it. Even with being tucked under a body, I can't see exactly how such a thing could have happened. Maybe it is because I am the sort of guy who checks four times that the cooker is off, and five times that the back door is locked, I also must check the towhitch, lock pin etc hals a dozen times before I set off. Having this sort of personality, I know when I leave that it is without doubt correctly closed and pinned. This is the security I have that I don't have to worry about a chain. I have to say that even with chains, human error will occur at some time. The shackle will only be done up hand tight one day and the pin will vibrate and unsceew itself. Or someone will decide to hook the chain onto some part of a vehicle that is not strong enough to take a tug. Having a chain is not an ultimate guarantee of safety, because Murphy's law says if something can be used wrongly, or assembled wrongly, or fail in a way that is abnormal, sooner or later it willhappen. But a get in a car and wear just one seat belt,because that is the way the car is designed. I don't feel the need to fit a second seat belt, in case the first one somehow comes out of the catch, shortly before I have an accident. Andas I say, if you use a chain, how do you trust the shackles not to unscrew. Do you mouse them, do you use plain pins with through holes and use a split let cotter pin? How far do you go. If I were to use chains with the 50 ton Dyson trailer, where do the chains attach to the trailer? There is no obvious provision for their use. Do U weld on eyes for the purpose? Or do I say this trailer served with the British Army for 40 plus years, and was never the subject of an EMER to add eyes for safety chains, so why bother now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 (edited) The only thing I don't understand is the locking bar is spring loaded and closes on its own. I had to hold it up, deliberately to get the pin to pass underneath it. Even with being tucked under a body, I can't see exactly how such a thing could have happened. Having a chain is not an ultimate guarantee of safety, because Murphy's law says if something can be used wrongly, or assembled wrongly, or fail in a way that is abnormal, sooner or later it willhappen. I think you've answered your own question there Mike. Edited January 20, 2010 by Joris tidied up the quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 (edited) I remember reading about an aircrash that occured because a valve that could physically be fitted either way round, but only worked correctly when one way round (correct orientation of valve indicated by a stamped arrow) , had been refitted faceing the wrong way after servicing. The cause was found in the accident investigation, and a modification was made to the parts concerned adding a blocking pin and mating hole to one of the joint face. A few years later a sister plane crashed, and the valve was found to be wrongly fitted. The initial thought was that one plane had failed to get the modification done. However it transpired that a fitter had tried to fit the valve the wrong way round and found he couldn't because of the blocking pin. rather than try the valve the other way, he filed off the pin and fitted it the way he thought it should go,at the same time ignoring the stamped arrow that stayed on the modded part. As I said Murhy's law is all powerful and works in every part of Human life. If you fully understand and use a Nato hitch correctly, and make sure nothing is worn or damaged then there is no reason to need safety chains. It sounds to me like the Dutch guy who lost the trailer might have once worked as an aircraft fitter! Edited January 21, 2010 by antarmike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recymech66 Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 I concur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Maybe it is because I am the sort of guy who checks four times that the cooker is off, and five times that the back door is locked, I also must check the towhitch, lock pin etc hals a dozen times before I set off. And I thought it was just me....:undecided:....don't feel so bad now knowing other are like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 And I thought it was just me....:undecided:....don't feel so bad now knowing other are like this It's called an OCD, and it aint good, but hey what else would we do with our spare time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Farrant Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 It's called an OCD, and it aint good, but hey what else would we do with our spare time! Heck..there is even a name for it ! Frustrating, but as you say, it keeps us busy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Cubed Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Heck..there is even a name for it ! Frustrating, but as you say, it keeps us busy. Whats the name for !!! Keeps us busy with what !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodge Deep Posted January 25, 2010 Share Posted January 25, 2010 Given that pencils have rubbers on the end of 'em (amongst other things) things do, and will go wrong. I remember sitting in a pub at a 40's weekend watching a nice dodge trundle past followed a couple of seconds later by the caravan it was supposed to be towing... no break away wire/chains straps... in a busy village... how nobody was hurt was nowt short of miraculous... Also (and for the sake of argument) say I'm following a large towed trailer, artillery peice, living van or whatever... The load for whatever reason fails to stay friends with the truck (we've already established that they do)... ...the towing vehicle begins to pull away from the trailer ...'pop' go the air lines and electrical connections and your load will, in effect slam its brakes on in the middle of the road with no brakelights or warning to following motorists... at least on safety chains at the point when your load separates from the hitch you'll get some inkling... a lurch or deafening racket as it his the floor and begins to drag, but it's more likely to be brought to a safe standstill than being left to its own devises and if it rams you up the backside then you've only got your own backside to kick rather than a que of other people waiting to do it :police: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Posted January 26, 2010 Author Share Posted January 26, 2010 Given that pencils have rubbers on the end of 'em (amongst other things) things do, and will go wrong.I remember sitting in a pub at a 40's weekend watching a nice dodge trundle past followed a couple of seconds later by the caravan it was supposed to be towing... no break away wire/chains straps... in a busy village... how nobody was hurt was nowt short of miraculous... Also (and for the sake of argument) say I'm following a large towed trailer, artillery peice, living van or whatever... The load for whatever reason fails to stay friends with the truck (we've already established that they do)... ...the towing vehicle begins to pull away from the trailer ...'pop' go the air lines and electrical connections and your load will, in effect slam its brakes on in the middle of the road with no brakelights or warning to following motorists... at least on safety chains at the point when your load separates from the hitch you'll get some inkling... a lurch or deafening racket as it his the floor and begins to drag, but it's more likely to be brought to a safe standstill than being left to its own devises and if it rams you up the backside then you've only got your own backside to kick rather than a que of other people waiting to do it :police: You have sumed up my reason for fitting them perfectly but I'm sure the anti SAFETY chain police will tell me diffrent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Cubed Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 What is the towing vehicle, and what do the safety chain mounts look like on both vehicle and trailer? As long as the breakaway chain/rope is rated comfortably higher than the mounting points, the chain/rope is not likely to fail. For example, if you take GMC 6x6 safety chain mounting eyes, I doubt they would test more than 2 tonne!!!! I presume these are the two eye bolts just inside the bumperettes either side of the tow hook, and designed as breakaway chain points ? do you mean 2 tons each ? I nteresting thread this, also I have read somewhere that if the towed thing becomes detached the chains or strops must not let any part of the drawbar contact the ground ! so keep the chains only just long enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Posted January 26, 2010 Author Share Posted January 26, 2010 I presume these are the two eye bolts just inside the bumperettes either side of the tow hook, and designed as breakaway chain points ? do you mean 2 tons each ? Yes thats the breakaway chain points, not sure on the rating hopfully other members can confirm this ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 (edited) You have sumed up my reason for fitting them perfectly but I'm sure the anti SAFETY chain police will tell me diffrent I presume these are the two eye bolts just inside the bumperettes either side of the tow hook, and designed as breakaway chain points ? do you mean 2 tons each ?I nteresting thread this, also I have read somewhere that if the towed thing becomes detached the chains or strops must not let any part of the drawbar contact the ground ! so keep the chains only just long enough. Just for the sake of clarity, where on a Matador are you suggesting attaching breakaway chains? You have identified were they go on your vehicle, but where should they be on a standard, unmodified Matador? And whilst we are thinking about it where on a standard Scammell Explorer do you think is the best place to attach break-away chains? Edited January 26, 2010 by antarmike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotBed Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 You have sumed up my reason for fitting them perfectly but I'm sure the anti SAFETY chain police will tell me diffrent :rotfl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted January 26, 2010 Share Posted January 26, 2010 (edited) I presume these are the two eye bolts just inside the bumperettes either side of the tow hook, and designed as breakaway chain points ? do you mean 2 tons each ? Yep. But on reflection I think maybe 2 tonnes was being generous - what I meant was that if these were lifting eyes they would probably be rated for a 1 or 1.5 tonne lift, but lifting equipment testing is a different ball game to ratings for towing or recovery equipment. Not a good comparison. The reason for making it though was just to illustrate that there would be no strength advantage using a chain with a rating of say 6 tonnes if the eye was only rated at 2 tonnes! Interestingly the WW2 photo below from a manual shows chains straight, not crossed. At that time they were presumably more concerned with catching the trailer than preventing it from digging in! Of course being American the equipment comes complete with all the necessary mounting points :cool2:. I would agree in this day and age crossed makes for a better precaution (excuse my choice of subject, I have OTD - obsessive tanker disorder). Edited January 27, 2010 by N.O.S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodge Deep Posted January 27, 2010 Share Posted January 27, 2010 So perhaps no provision for safety chains is merely a design oversight rather than deliberate act of refusal to admit that anything could go wrong on the part of the manufacturers Optimistic Chain Devise is it contagious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts