Antar Running Problem

[antarkev]

Hi everyone,

 

I own a Mark 2 Antar which has the meteorite 204 V8 petrol engine. I've had this since July this year and have spent a lot of time on it. It was previously in a field in Dorset. I've got so far as to get it running and have had it too a few shows - will post some pics when I work out how to. Would welcome any help with the problem I have, it will run till warm and then cuts out. If you leave it to cool for about 10 mins then it starts up fine again, only to do the same thing when its up to temp again.

Any ideas would be gratefully recieved as I have tried everything I can think of so far and have reached a dead end. I have'nt put what I've tried so far as I don't want to discount anything at all at the moment as I might have missed something on the way. I'm not a complete novice but I must be missing something.

 

Kevin

[Adrian Barrell]

That sounds like ignition. I assume it's magneto ignition in which case the coils may break down as they get warm.

 

Less likely if it's coil ignition but can still happen.

 

Have you checked whether there is fuel or sparks present at the point it stops?

[antarmike]

Hi Kevin, what is your relationship to "slick0007", who PM'd me about an Antar with a similar fault. are you one in the same person?, or is he helping you?

[antarmike]

I would think with two magnetos and two plugs per cylinder it would be odd to have a fault on each system, that brings the engine to a halt. The Booster coil should only be working whilst the starter motors are cranking, but have you checked it is working as it should? (and that I believe only works on the Magneto wired to the Inlet Manifold side plugs. The Magneto running the Exhaust manifold side plugs does not have a booster coil.

I would have thought maybe fuel. perhaps a blocked breather to the fuel tank, and when a certain amount of fuel has been used and a vacuum has built up in the tank then fuel starvation follows. In the time the engine is being left to cool, air gradually find its way back into to the tank, and you are able to restart.

 

(but even that seems unlikely.) Does it happen if you have the fuel tank filler open? Have you tried to open the filler as soon as the engine has died and heard a rush of air into the tank?

 

Will the engine run for as long as it normally does, with "A" magneto shorted, and will it also run with "B" magneto shorted?.

 

My reasoning is if it runs solely on A mag until the engine is hot, then it cuts, and if it also runs solely on B magneto from cold until the engine is hot then it cuts, that would mean you have identical faults of each of the two totally seperate ingnition systems, and that seems unlikely to me.

 

I would be looking at fuel, or an air leak at the carburetor, manifold gasket for example. But again two Carburettors, two manifolds, if one is faulty then it is unlikely the other will have the same fault.

 

To me this indicates the fault is in the common part of the engine that is used by both banks of cylinders,

this rules out Carburettors, and magnetos/ ignition system. With seperate fuel lift pumps for each bank, the only common parts of the system are the fuel tank/s the changover (two way) valve and the Main Fuel filter. After this point there are two of everything. I would have thought a Meteorite should run, but very roughly, on just one bank of cylinder.

Edited November 13, 2009 by antarmike

[antarmike]

The engine speed is governed to 2000 rpm, but my Handbook is very sketchy about this. I thought that there was a centrifugal governor built into each Mag, that shorted the LT at 2000 revs. I don't know whether the mags are linked, so one reaching 2000 cuts both, but could your problem be related to the engine speed governing system, which apart from the A and B mag shorting switches are the only thing I can think of which will cut the mags.

 

What info do you have on how the engine speed is limited to 2000, and where the centrifugal switch(es) are located?

Edited November 13, 2009 by antarmike

[Adrian Barrell]

I would agree with all that you said Mike except......

 

My M75 developed a similar fault in that it would run for about 20 minutes and then lose power and stop. Using the booster, which is independantly controlled, I could extend the running a little but this confirmed it was ignition.

After 30 mins or so, it would start and run ok for another 20 minutes.

I had new coils fitted in the mags and it has been fine eversince. Tests confirmed the coils failed a hot test.

Seems a huge coincidence but they were both of a similar vintage and broke down over time in the same way.

[antarmike]

Antar magnetos are air cooled, with air circulating in and out through two flexible tubes. I don't know how hot an Antar Mag would actually get. (Air is drawn through the mags into the Carburetors, so cool air always running through the Mag??)

 

Does the Antar run appreciably longer in the winter than it does in the summer? i.e. is the problem truely ralated to the temperature of a component, or is it just related to running time and amount of fuel used?

Edited November 14, 2009 by antarmike

[antarkev]

Hi Everyone

 

Thanks for all the really helpful info - I'm answering on behalf of Kevin (I'm his daughter who found this site for him), just thought I'd have a look to see if anyone had answered, will pass on all the info and suggestions and keep you all updated on how things are going. Think we've got more info in a few hours than we have had in months so once again thanks.

Regards

[antarmike]

If both mags are failing when hot logic says one will fail before the other but you won't know this because the engine will run on one mag only.

 

However if you run the engine till it is getting warm, then alternately short out A mag then B mag, then A mag then B and so on before the engine stops on its own, one mag may fail but the engine still runs on the other mag, but as soon as you you short out the mag that is still functioning the engine should die, taking your finger off that Mag shorting button should allow the engine to pick up for a bit before that mag also stops working.

 

Ie try and assertain if both mags are still working when the engine dies, or whether one mag has failed and minute or two before the engine dies...

[Tony B]

Hi Everyone

 

Thanks for all the really helpful info - I'm answering on behalf of Kevin (I'm his daughter who found this site for him), just thought I'd have a look to see if anyone had answered, will pass on all the info and suggestions and keep you all updated on how things are going. Think we've got more info in a few hours than we have had in months so once again thanks.

Regards

 

Don't worry about Kev, join in in your own right!

[slick0007]

hi thanks to every one who has given this some thought and posted ideas

to answer another question the antar is owned by kevin (antarkev) and i am slick0007 or peter who is trying to help sort the problem

we have had a small break throu we had it running for two hours by blowing compressed air through the mag cooling pipes we are puzzled by the original set up as we cant see how it would curculate air through the mags to cool them

please keep all your ideas coming and we will keep you informed of our progress

 

thanks again kevin and peter

[Grasshopper]

Had a similar ignition problem on a CVRT. Every time it got hot, it would die. By the time we had removed all the covers to get to the distributor, it would be cool and would then run fine.

 

While a CVRT has electronic ignition, i have since learned that the 2 breather pipes going to the distributor (which I assumed were for wading purposes) actually aid cooling of the module via differential pressure ciculation. On pipe goes to the air filter box and the other goes into the caurburettor horn (at a narrow point).

[Richard Farrant]

we have had a small break throu we had it running for two hours by blowing compressed air through the mag cooling pipes we are puzzled by the original set up as we cant see how it would curculate air through the mags to cool them

please keep all your ideas coming and we will keep you informed of our progress

 

 

 

 

Peter,

 

It sounds like you have a magneto problem, I have had vintage motorcycles with mags, which have failed to spark when hot. In the end after having the mag overhauled on one, I replaced it. Never had a problem after that. They do suffer from damp affecting the windings, magnetism can break down, etc.

[antarmike]

Stupid idea, but if it is the coil in the mags breaking down, can you proove this by lashing wiring to the booster coil, so that you can power it up without the starter being pressed?

 

It should be feeding HT to the distributor part of A Mag. so in theory, I would have thought that for a short time, it would be possible to run on the booster coil as the only source of H.T. If the engine has got hot and stopped, surley it should restart when the Starter is pressed because the booster coil is supplying the HT. As wired at present, if the mags are both giving no output, the Bosster coil should get it going. (but letting go of the starter button switches the booster coil back out of circuit.) Does it attempt tp start when the Starter is pressed, and stop immediately after relaesing the button?

 

I know this theory does not work if insulation has broken down and the Coil in A mag is effectively grounded to earth, because this would pull down the Booster coil HT.

 

But if it will run hot with the booster coil lashed into circuit it fairly conclusively proves both Mags have no output.

Edited November 15, 2009 by antarmike

[Tony Graves]

dear antar kev ,i don,t know if this is the problem, is the choke on the metorite water cooled/. many years ago i had the same problem with my mark 11 jag, after 10 minutes driving the engine would stop, after a quarter of an hour it would fly into life, and the procedure would be the same all over again. a friend of mine had serviced it a couple of weeks previous and messed with the twin su carbs,. this was the early days of crypton tuning, i towed the jag to the garage and expected a huge bill, the answer was simple, the mixture in the carbs was weak , so when the water heated up it shut the choke off too early and the weak mixture was not enough to run the engine. so after 15 minutes of cooling down the engine started perfectly. all the garage did was to richen the carbs up on the crypton system and i never had any more problems with the engine. hope this is of some help, all the best tony g.

[antar]

I met up with Antarkev today at Malvern, he had the ANTAR out running around yesterday for 2 hours without missing a beat. Kevin had hooked up the feed to the air horn to the magnetos breather system, whilst driving he gave the horn push a press every few minutes, blowing cool air from the auxulliary air tank through the magnetos. He is now quite sure the problem is due to the Magnetos breaking down electrically when hot. All he needs now is instructions on removing them. At the moment all my ANTAR manuals are with Melvin Cordwell who has the ex-Beverly pair.

 

John.

[Adrian Barrell]

I refer you to my suggestion (second post) :coffee: :-D

[AndyFowler]

I met up with Antarkev today at Malvern, he had the ANTAR out running around yesterday for 2 hours without missing a beat. Kevin had hooked up the feed to the air horn to the magnetos breather system, whilst driving he gave the horn push a press every few minutes, blowing cool air from the auxulliary air tank through the magnetos. He is now quite sure the problem is due to the Magnetos breaking down electrically when hot. All he needs now is instructions on removing them. At the moment all my ANTAR manuals are with Melvin Cordwell who has the ex-Beverly pair.

 

John.

 

Did you get any pics mate ? :-D

[antar]

Did you get any pics mate ? :-D

 

Hi Andy, I know Kev is keen to get out in his Antar whenever possible but he did not actually take it to Malvern !!!

[AndyFowler]

Hi Andy, I know Kev is keen to get out in his Antar whenever possible but he did not actually take it to Malvern !!!

 

Sorry mate ! Wrong end of the stick again ! Standard for me ! :-D

[FEC]

Hi Kev

I had Mk 2s do this to me on a number of occasions when road testing vehicles that had been in storage for long periods. The engine would start, run well with bags of power then drop off and fail, but start up after a short period. The main culprits were the choke casing seals, which had dried and shrunk allowing air to pass. Once the engine was up to temp the main jet could not cope with the constant air bleeding into the mixture. The other contenders are the fuel pumps. There are as you know two independent units. But they are linked to each other and each carburettor, so that if one fails the other will supply fuel. The one that did this to me had a pump with a crack across the valve face, that rendered it unable to move fuel. The other pump did the work but had a valve sticking issue once it got warm.

[antarkev]

Hello everyone!

I have had some progress over the past few months.

 

I had successfully fitted a coach heater blower motor, I put air through 2 pipes down to the 2 mags thus putting a steady flow of cold air to each magneto.

 

I took it out this Sunday just gone and it ran wonderfully. I covered about 20 miles without a beat so I was very, very happy!

 

I am now looking for a spare engine, it's the meteorite petrol engine. Does anybody own a manual for this or know where I can get one?

 

I want to say a massive thank you to everyone here who has been helping me and giving me their ideas, THANK YOU SO MUCH !

 

And finally... Does anybody know where there are currently any antar's for sale anywhere?

 

Thanks again !

[Adrian Barrell]

Glad you got it sorted and that I was right! :angel:

 

Aircraft often use forced air cooling through hose to cool mags so it's a known problem. However, as they were designed to run in Antar without extra cooling (I assume) it does suggest the coils are not performing as they should so the problem may re-occur with a longer run and/or over time.

 

At least you know what the problem is, well done on your novel solution.

[FV1604A]

Hi Kev,

Have asked my pal if he is interested in selling his mark two. Will let you know if he is. Runs, drives

interesting history.P.M me if you want to discuss it.

Best wishes,

Mike FV1604A

[antar]

Hello everyone!

I have had some progress over the past few months.

 

I had successfully fitted a coach heater blower motor, I put air through 2 pipes down to the 2 mags thus putting a steady flow of cold air to each magneto.

 

I took it out this Sunday just gone and it ran wonderfully. I covered about 20 miles without a beat so I was very, very happy!

 

I am now looking for a spare engine, it's the meteorite petrol engine. Does anybody own a manual for this or know where I can get one?

 

I want to say a massive thank you to everyone here who has been helping me and giving me their ideas, THANK YOU SO MUCH !

 

And finally... Does anybody know where there are currently any antar's for sale anywhere?

 

Thanks again !

 

Evening Kev,

It is John Riley who you met at Saddleworth Wartime weekend. If you get in touch with Melvyn at Heywood, Manchester (I gave you his number when we were at Malvern) he has all my Antar manuals on loan at the moment. You too are welcome to have loan of them for copying ect, just let me know what you borrow. Mel is retired so is about most of the time, you should go and visit him he has 2 Antars a Centurion and a Dyson trailer. If you have lost his number give me a call.

John.