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Barrie

Firearms Certificate - U.S. 37mm Tank Gun

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Help please ………

 

I am looking at the ‘possibility’ of purchasing a World War 2 light tank. The U.S. 37mm gun (with M6 mount) in the vehicle is live firing and the current U.K. owner has removed the gun and lodged it with a Registered Firearms Dealer.

 

As the weapon has been lodged with a RFD, I understand that it can now only be legally passed to someone to deactivate or to someone with the appropriate firearms licence.

 

Rather than having the weapon deactivated, and living in the U.K., I have contacted my local Police Forces Firearms Enquiry Officer who was at a slight loss as there are no other firearms of this type licenced in the area. He seems quite happy with the 'good reason' for having the weapon and its integrity to the history of the vehicle. The FEO is making further enquiries and has promised to get back to me shortly.

 

I already have a Firearms Certificate, for several sporting rifles, and asked the FEO if the 37mm could be put on my FAC with no ammunition allocation. He is slightly in the dark and hinted that the 37mm may come under the heading of a sec5 prohibited weapon.

 

Reading the Home Office Firearms Guidance document 2016 doesn’t seem to indicate that a 37mm is sec5 only such ammunition which could be used with it that explodes. As I don’t want an ammunition allocation this doesn’t apply.

 

Has anyone experience of licensing a vehicle mounted 37mm ?

Is anyone able to speak with my FEO and assist ?

Is there any official documentation I could present with my FAC application/variation ?

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It is just a large single shot rifle in effect, definitely Sect. 1. You should have no problem adding it to your FAC via a variation, subject to your local Police being happy.

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It is just a large single shot rifle in effect, definitely Sect. 1. You should have no problem adding it to your FAC via a variation, subject to your local Police being happy.

 

Yes, just put in a standard variation with covering letter, I expect you will have to store the breech block. My mate has a 120mm Mobat on FAC, just no rounds.

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Unfortunately all Police Forces take different views on things and the conditions to apply

 

A neighbouring county to me require the whole vehicle and weapon to be stored in a secure building with a monitored alarm which can make it expensive.

 

My conditions are similar to Ammo Man's.

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Sect 1 - if you re-enact, then you could get an explosives licence and blank fire it... you should check with the previous owner to see if it has been proofed by London or Birmingham proof houses - if it hasn't then you will need to get them to come out to you to do that.

 

Security requirements - will vary from county to county.

 

Tim

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Thank-you everyone that have replied.

 

You all seem to being singing from the same hymn sheet which is very much what I thought !

 

Just a matter know of convincing my local FEO and Firearms Dept !

 

Tim - I'm not into re-enacting and don't intend to use blank ammunition, in fact I want a FAC to show 'NIL' ammunition, but thanks for pointing out the proof requirements.

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Barrie

I have spoken with a friend who is familiar with both civilian and military fire arms, he is drafting me a reply to go on here

Richard

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Barrie

I have spoken with a friend who is familiar with both civilian and military fire arms, he is drafting me a reply to go on here

Richard

 

 

Thank-you.

 

Look forward to the reply .............

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My Friends comments, his alone;

 

Comments,

Why does the officer what the vehicle secured if the fire arm can be removed and secured like other fire arms?

Ifits smooth bore it could come under a shot gun certificate and as the barrellength if over 25inches and SMOOTH BORE , yes agree covered under section1 certificate might be sensible.

Itis known more than one chief constable is granting an application for such andyet another will cause harassment distress and alarm to a bona fide applicantshows the apparent mentality of the chief constables .

Isay Harassment because they hope the applicant will go away! distress by thethought that such preservation will require de-activation and hence greatreduction in the equipment value? and Alarm because it is the hope that even anapplication leading to a Crown Court appeal if refused would make the legitapplication financially crazy.

itis a complete farce, there is an Act of Parliament under the terms of the firearms act, the various Chief officers who appear to be unaccountable and hide behinda wall knowing that should you take an appeal to the crown court on a refusalto grant, variation or renewal of a fire arm certificate then the ChiefConstable puts the applicant for appeal against the decision of a chiefconstable and it is the applicant who will bear THE COST IN FULL of the appealto crown court, if you lose you will have ALL YOUR costs and The ChiefConstable will claim all that he can get away or if you win the appeal you arestuck with all your costs or EVEN IF the police withdraw at the court room doorit will just be a trick by the Chief Constable just to out you the applicantout of all your substantial cost which is a trick increase the costs of yourappeal. If however you do get refused and decide tom appeal then go to the HighCourt in London Queen Bench with a copy of your Receipt from the Crown Courtwith your listed appeal number and for a fee of approximately £5 Pounds you can writeout a Subpoena Duces Taken for all the documents necessary that you require fromthe Chief Constable and name him personally in the Subpoena to appear in personat the Crown Court. Make sure that the Subpoena requires the Chief Constableprovides ALL the documents 10 Working days from the date of issue of theSubpoena. If they are not received don't accept that they will be provided onthe day of the Appeals hearing as they do not provide. If the Chief Constabledoes not accept the Subpoenas then go back the Queens bench in the HighCourt and fill out another form for an Order of Substantive Service" andserve that upon the Firearms office addressed to the Chief Constable by nameeand obtain a receipt upon delivery yourself.

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It sounds like the FEO isn't against the idea, he just wants to make further enquiries which is fair enough. You may find it beneficial to do some of the leg work yourself. Ring a few other counties and ask how they approach the matter and you can politely inform him of what you find. He could quite possibly to busy to bother reasearching himself so if you can provide him with details of another authority then you've made it easy for him.

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It sounds like the FEO isn't against the idea, he just wants to make further enquiries which is fair enough. You may find it beneficial to do some of the leg work yourself. Ring a few other counties and ask how they approach the matter and you can politely inform him of what you find. He could quite possibly to busy to bother reasearching himself so if you can provide him with details of another authority then you've made it easy for him.

 

 

Chris ...... Thank-you for the reply.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. The FEO wasn't sure and wanted to make further enquiries, which I can understand.

I thought there may have been an HMVF member who has a FAC for a 37mm and he/she could give me a little bit of info/advice. Then I could point the FEO in the direction of that persons Police Authority.

 

Richard [surveyor] ... And please thank your friend for his advice, much appreciated.

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My Friends comments, his alone;

 

Comments,

Why does the officer what the vehicle secured if the fire arm can be removed and secured like other fire arms?

 

Does your friend know what a 37mm gun in a tank is like? You are hardly going to remove it.

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Does your friend know what a 37mm gun in a tank is like? You are hardly going to remove it.

 

As I said his comments, I think he may have had a moment not thinking straight on the calibre, just looking at comments on this thread

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Evening All,

 

Three weeks down the line and just heard from my local FEO, after a bit of prompting !

 

He has asked me if I can provide any evidence of other Police Forces issuing FAC's for similar type weapons to vehicle collectors. ie 37mm, 2pdr, 57mm etc ...

 

I know this is me having to do his job for him but if I can provide evidence that other Police Forces do issue FAC's it will go a long, long way towards my FAC variation.

 

Is there anyone willing to put there head above the parapet (sorry !) and provide me with details of their (heavier) weaponry and FAC/Police Force details ?

 

If some kind souls could assist I would be grateful for a pm.

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Met police have licensced 25 lb guns, also Wiltshire and Essex come to think of it. Your FAO should be in a position to ask for info. Just don't get fobbed off by Guidlines. As a last resort you can apply to a Crown Court.

Edited by Tony B

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Out of interest and not particularly connected with the OP's interesting issues, can anyone (probably with an FAC for an artillery piece) provide an insight to the following.

 

I am in the process of obtaining an FAC (hopefully now just waiting for it to arrive) and have had "the interview" etc., so I am familiar with the strange processes involved. The local FEO told me that in order to be granted an FAC you must show that you have a legitimate reason for needing one, and in order to keep it and renew it in due course you must be able to show that you use it. The reasoning behind this, the FEO explained, was that if you don't actually ever use the firearm you cannot actually need it. Logical in a way, I suppose.

 

I questioned this because whilst I can demonstrate "need" (in my case zoological - the swift humane destruction of escaped dangerous animals if recapture is not possible) it is to be hoped that I will never be able to demonstrate "use" (no escapes = no shootings). The FEO conceded that in specific circumstances there would be exceptions to the "no use = no need" reasoning.

 

This however got me thinking about "need" and "use" for an artillery piece. Supposing that the local FEO is right and that this is how Police throughout the land think, what legitimate need can be cited for a private citizen to have a live-firing artillery piece, and how do you demonstrate "use"? I guess that walking into the local gunsmith to buy 105 AP shells isn't an option!

 

I am not playing devil's advocate but am genuinely interested and would appreciate views. If it is considered more apprioriate please feel free to PM if a public forum is not appropriate.

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This again will differ depending on which force you come under. Some holders will be seen as a collector and approved as such. The Home Office standard for deactivating artillery is not terribly onerous but it does detract from the condition somewhat!

 

Most 'users' of artillery want to blank fire and this is more or less impossible to do with a deactivated piece. The deact requirement is for the chamber to be plugged as near to the rear face as practical. This prevents anything being inserted into the chamber. Consequently, for blank fire or film use, an open chamber and bore is needed and hence it has to be live.

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All,

 

Thank you very much for your replies.

 

What my FEO is asking is that I can provide evidence that other Police Forces issue FAC's for larger, vehicle mounted, collectible weapons.

 

What I would ask is that one or two people , who have FAC's for such weapons could pm their Force details.

 

I know most people with legally held weapons try to keep a low profile and keep their 'names off the radar', but this would assist me greatly.

 

Looking forward to a few pm's.

(Fingers Crossed!)

 

 

UTT61,

 

The 'good reason' in my case is the collectibility and rarity of of the vehicle and the weapon is a part of the vehicle and its history. The ammunition allocation on the FAC would be 'Nil' so in future renewals would not be an issue.

(I hope !)

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Thanks for the informative replies.

 

Based on my experiences recently, I would think that the ability to fire blanks, and an allocation of blanks on your FAC might help your case. I could foresee an argument that if you never want to fire any ammunition you don't need the piece to be fireable.

 

It is a strange business!

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Utt, in your case the need for a firearm would be considered the same as a slaughter man. Special dispensation would apply. As an aside, in your case, if you can prove Vetinary use, you could also apply for a Home Office Section 5 certificate. The reason being, dart guns, either rifle, pistol or blow guns, discharge a noxious substance, ie the Immobilon, which is a Section 5 weapon.

Edited by Tony B

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