Was there a 'standard' reconditioning procedure?

[No Signals]

While working on my Bedford, under the gunge I've found a small plate recording the engine being reconditioned by Vauxhall Motors in '2. 50', which I take as Feb 1950. Not having Service experience I've no knowledge of what might have been standard practise but I'm surprised this wasn't done by the forces own workshops. Were there certain jobs done at certain times 'in house' but during other periods it was considered cheaper/more expediant / whatever to get a factory job done? Also found under the gunge that the engine number is not what is on the logbook so I must get that seen to as soon as everything opens back up!

[Richard Farrant]

While working on my Bedford, under the gunge I've found a small plate recording the engine being reconditioned by Vauxhall Motors in '2. 50', which I take as Feb 1950. Not having Service experience I've no knowledge of what might have been standard practise but I'm surprised this wasn't done by the forces own workshops. Were there certain jobs done at certain times 'in house' but during other periods it was considered cheaper/more expediant / whatever to get a factory job done? Also found under the gunge that the engine number is not what is on the logbook so I must get that seen to as soon as everything opens back up!

 

As your engine number in the log book does not coincide with the fitted engine, a Vauxhall rebuild, it might be that this present engine was infact, a factory exchange unit that was fitted while in civvy use. Unless of course, it is painted in Eau-de-nil or Sky Blue colour. Vauxhall exchange engine colour was black.

 

It was quite common for engines and other assemblies to go back to the manufacturers on contractors, under Ministry of Supply or War Office contracts. Bedford, Humber, Daimler, Austin, etc can often be seen with makers rebuild plates, sometimes the plate is Min. of Supply with a number stamped in often beginning with "B", this would be a contractors ID number or Army Auxillary Workshop (also contractors). It still happens today.

 

Having been involved with vehicle engineering for the Forces, including rebuilding engines in their own workshops, I know the standards of rebuild and they are very high. Contractors have to adhere to the same standards, if they fail to meet them, then they are likely to lose out. In later years, even railway companies have been involved, rebuilding Land Rover 2.25 petrol engines. I personally have built many types of Bedford engines on a line, as well as Land Rover 2.25 and 6 cyl petrols, Commer 6 cyl, etc. by the hundreds.

[Marmite!!]

I know the standards of rebuild and they are very high.

 

Richard,

 

were all recon engines bench tested? the reason I ask is that a couple of years back I fitted a recon engine in a Saladin, it was crated & still sealed up when we received it, everything wrapped in cosmaleen (sp?). When we first tried to fire it up it sprayed petrol everywhere from the carb banjo, on closer inspection we found the carb had a casting fault & took a fair bit of filing to get the banjo to seal. The next problem was that it would not run properly & after looseing my eyebrows & all the hair on one arm after it back fired through the carb big time, we checked the leads, two of them were swapped round. There was a bit of paperwork with the engine stating it had been Economised??

 

This engine could never of been tested after its rebuild or they would of spotted the faults straight away..

Edited December 25, 2008 by Marmite!!

[No Signals]

it might be that this present engine was infact, a factory exchange unit that was fitted while in civvy use. Unless of course, it is painted in Eau-de-nil or Sky Blue colour. Vauxhall exchange engine colour was black.

 

.

 

 

Hmm - got me there again Richard, I've seen 'Eau de Nil' referred to before but I dont know what actual colour it is. I can confirm that the engine to my eyes doesnt appear to be either Sky Blue nor Black. Being totally colour blind doesnt help I admit but I can say that the engine isn't the yellow/clay? type colour I've seen on what I took to be a ground up resto, if that is what Eau de Nil is. Pic attached but it isnt the best quality and the engine is still in its very grubby state in this shot. Afraid I dont a have a 'clean' one yet!

 

My guess based on what else I have learned about this vehicle is that the engine has been in the truck since its Service life. That is not to claim though that the current engine was fitted in 1950. The engine no. is OY 1151R from memory, the log book number being a much higher OY no..

[sirhc]

Duncan, that's a sky blue engine, although the paint is faded.

 

Lee, could it be that the engines were dyno tested with a specific set of ancillaries, which were then removed and put on the next engine? The J60 EMERs have a section on dyno testing where the length of time at certain loads is specified. My reconditioned J60 (done in 1997 I think by a place in Grantham) started and ran straight out the box. Sounds like that B80 was a bit of a lemon?

[Richard Farrant]

Richard,

 

were all recon engines bench tested? the reason I ask is that a couple of years back I fitted a recon engine in a Saladin, it was crated & still sealed up when we received it, everything wrapped in cosmaleen (sp?). When we first tried to fire it up it sprayed petrol everywhere from the carb banjo, on closer inspection we found the carb had a casting fault & took a fair bit of filing to get the banjo to seal. The next problem was that it would not run properly & after looseing my eyebrows & all the hair on one arm after it back fired through the carb big time, we checked the leads, two of them were swapped round. There was a bit of paperwork with the engine stating it had been Economised??

 

This engine could never of been tested after its rebuild or they would of spotted the faults straight away..

 

Lee,

 

All engines were bench tested for a given period, all temperatures and oil pressures recorded, on B vehicles engines, a percentage were load tested on a water brake dyno, might have been 1 in 10. I think A veh engines were all supposed to be load tested and power ratings recorded. Now that term "economised" might have been a time when petrol shortages were on, I recollect certain cut backs involving economical use of fuel, having to be made for a period, but cannot be sure. It is entirely possible that some of these engines were "sidelined" in favour of those that were fully tested, hence why it came up as surplus. It certainly sounds a bad engine. What a lot of people do not realise is that the old units had also to be preserved, with cosmoline over the leads, distributor, carb, etc. Preservative sprayed into the engine and all orifices sealed. I think there have been times when people have bought engines in crates, only to find it is a returned unit for overhaul. Sometimes engines were taken out, on exercises or schemes and changed for some minor faults, as a way of getting the vehicle operational as quick as possible, so some old engines might just be serviceable after short and minor repair, ie head gasket or overhaul cyl head.

Edited December 26, 2008 by Richard Farrant
more info on economised

[Richard Farrant]

Hmm - got me there again Richard, I've seen 'Eau de Nil' referred to before but I dont know what actual colour it is.

 

My guess based on what else I have learned about this vehicle is that the engine has been in the truck since its Service life. That is not to claim though that the current engine was fitted in 1950. The engine no. is OY 1151R from memory, the log book number being a much higher OY no..

 

Duncan,

Eau-de-nil is a pale green colour, not unlike the background to this message, as Chris says, your engine is Sky Blue, which was introduced around c1950 for rebuilt engines.

 

That engine number is for a factory rebuild engine, hence the suffix R, and I would say with a low 4 figure number, it was probably built with a new block, so re-numbered. I should point out, that the oil filter fitted in the photo is a postwar type for the 28 hp, military ones had the throwaway canister with pipe fittings on top. Also the carb is not the original military type Solex.

[Tony B]

Lee, in the case of a Saladin Meteor, it may well, in fact 99%, was serviced by Avation Jersey. There were shall we say to be delicate, 'Quality control' issuses with the firm.

[Marmite!!]

Lee, in the case of a Saladin Meteor, it may well, in fact 99%, was serviced by Avation Jersey. There were shall we say to be delicate, 'Quality control' issuses with the firm.

 

 

Meteor:confused: Saladin has a RR B80

[Richard Farrant]

Lee, in the case of a Saladin Meteor, it may well, in fact 99%, was serviced by Avation Jersey. There were shall we say to be delicate, 'Quality control' issuses with the firm.

 

Never came across any B Series engines in British service, overhauled by Aviation Jersey, they were all done "in house" at Base or Command Workshops REME. They might have done them in early years......

[No Signals]

Duncan,

Eau-de-nil is a pale green colour, not unlike the background to this message, as Chris says, your engine is Sky Blue, which was introduced around c1950 for rebuilt engines.

 

That engine number is for a factory rebuild engine, hence the suffix R, and I would say with a low 4 figure number, it was probably built with a new block, so re-numbered. I should point out, that the oil filter fitted in the photo is a postwar type for the 28 hp, military ones had the throwaway canister with pipe fittings on top. Also the carb is not the original military type Solex.

 

I understand about the oil filter and carb not being the original fitment types but may it have been possible that these types were fitted at a later date whilst in service, or is it the case that in anyones experience units such as these were never seen within military use? It is just that nothing else I have come across with the vehicle really suggests any kind of work being done to it post-service and so I would be surprised if it is the case that you guys with the experience of these things are adamant that this set up is definitely not of service (RAF) origin. Interesting either way.

[Richard Farrant]

I understand about the oil filter and carb not being the original fitment types but may it have been possible that these types were fitted at a later date whilst in service,

 

 

Ah RAF........well can't comment on their procedures, but they did tend to hang on to equipment for a long time and might have done a few changes to keep it running. The filter and carb are from post war versions of the 28hp or early 214 and as the RAF would have had O and J types during the Fifties, this might be the answer.

Edited December 26, 2008 by Richard Farrant
spelling

[Tony B]

Never came across any B Series engines in British service, overhauled by Aviation Jersey, they were all done "in house" at Base or Command Workshops REME. They might have done them in early years......

 

Intresting because during the early '80's Aviation Jersey were Alvi's AFV main dealear. Remeber the furorie over South African Engines? :cool2: Alvis used them becuse of all the legal loopholes. The other side of the buissness was called Travelectric, that made electric wheelchirs, never could decide if that was salving concioncess or cashing in both ends.

[Richard Farrant]

Intresting because during the early '80's Aviation Jersey were Alvi's AFV main dealear.

 

Tony,

At that time there were many small countries around the world with Alvis and Daimler military vehicles and other equipment with RR engines, in their armouries, it was these customers that AJ would have been serving in the main. Some of them would not have had good engineering facilities for overhaul of major assemblies.

[No Signals]

Thanks for the input Richard, Chris etc, much appreciated.

 

Eau-de-nil is a pale green colour, not unlike the background to this message,

 

 

 

Just a personal thing this but stuff like this always amuses me. As someone who tends to deal in shades of grey I never have been able to always guess which shade equates to which colour. Happy New Year guys!

[Richard Farrant]

Thanks for the input Richard, Chris etc, much appreciated.

 

Just a personal thing this but stuff like this always amuses me. As someone who tends to deal in shades of grey I never have been able to always guess which shade equates to which colour. Happy New Year guys!

 

 

No problem, I guess you have to depend on what colour you are using, by the label on the paint tin.

[No Signals]

No problem, I guess you have to depend on what colour you are using, by the label on the paint tin.

 

Got it in one!

[AlienFTM]

There was certainly a standard reconditioning procedure for Chieftain and Scorpion, known respectively as Bargepole and Scorpole. (The concept for the latter was derived from that of the former.)

 

WRT Scorpole. There were a finite number of hulls built in the early 70s. Because there were no combat losses, there was no attrition, so that when design improvements came along, a method was necessary to get the improvements into the field. The oldest vehicles were cycled out of use and sent to be scorpoled, being replaced by newly-scorpoled vehicles. This was an ongoing process which meant that Scorpions were replaced periodically.

 

TBH the only change I ever noticed was that the motorcycle-style gear change pedal (slip the toe under the bar and push up to change up; put the foot on top of the bar and push down to change down) was replaced by a two-way pressure plate (push down with the toe to change down, push down with the heel to change up).

[Carruthers]

On the subject of engine colours, my MW engine is painted green (but not a camo OD green). is this correct, or can you tell me what colour they would have come out of the factory in WW2 in? Doesn't appear to have re-painted. Richard I guess you'll know this one!!

 

Also, where is the engine number located? Can't find it on mine...

 

Simon

[Richard Farrant]

 

On the subject of engine colours, my MW engine is painted green (but not a camo OD green). is this correct, or can you tell me what colour they would have come out of the factory in WW2 in? Doesn't appear to have re-painted. Richard I guess you'll know this one

Hi Simon,I have to be honest, I don't recollect the engine colour on your MW. When new, or a Bedford factory rebuild, I think black was the colour. In 1940's the rebuild colour in REME workshops was Eau-de-Nil, whichb is a pale or pastel green, don't think it was that shade.Engine number should be just above the petrol pump, quite large numerals.

[ted angus]

Apologies for only just picking up on this thread.

 

In the RAF we used to have a fantastic overhaul set- up for vehicles. Around the UK we had regional 4th line MT workshops setup on a regional basis similar to the Army's base /command workshops. One that was deeply involved in B series engines was at RAF Driffield which was the centre of excellence for the MK6 series of crash tenders which are commonly refered to as Alvis Salamanders by civvies. Another 4th line workshop was on 6 site 16 MU RAF Stafford. In both crash tenders and a wide range of Ground Support Equipment we used B series engines, Mainly the B61 & 81. I found them a dream to work on and for the purpose we were using them for when I worked on them at RAF Marham,they were outstanding as long as the servicing schedule was strictly adhered to and that engines were fine tuned as required which was normally every month. We had a fleet of trailer mounted B series powered generator sets producing aircraft voltages of 28 & 112 volts DC these were used on the first generation V bombers, which whilst being serviced on the ground required lots of wobbly amps to power up all the systems. At the time the multi grade engine oil was introduced 1974 ish we sufferred many catastrophic engine failures, I seem to recall there was a firm co-incidentally not far from us in Kings Lynn doing major rebuilds for either the RAF or the MoD.

They caused us as much trouble as the oil we had several engines back that had remains of the destroyed pistons lying in sludge in the sump, this went on for a while until the QA organisation got involved.

So in summary yes up until the early 1970s we had a 4th line RAF organisation for vehicles and yes the RAF were sending B series to civvy contract. In addition with vehicles and ground support equipment that was nearing the end of its life and only remained in-service in small numbers, permission could be sought and was occassionally given to fit non standard parts to return it to a serviceable condition.

regards TED

TED

[Carruthers]

Hi Simon,I have to be honest, I don't recollect the engine colour on your MW. When new, or a Bedford factory rebuild, I think black was the colour. In 1940's the rebuild colour in REME workshops was Eau-de-Nil, whichb is a pale or pastel green, don't think it was that shade.Engine number should be just above the petrol pump, quite large numerals.

 

cheers for that info Richard. I'm just getting it registered so I need to find all the numbers!!

BTW, since we took it away from yours/David's place, I have sorted the gearbox which selects nicely now (rusted selector rods, as you might have guessed) and just stripped the brake master cylinder which was solid, so it should be driveable shortly. I'll bung some pix up on a new thread if there's any interest. Also, a fully charged battery started it straight away!!!!

 

cheers

Simon

[Richard Farrant]

BTW, since we took it away from yours/David's place, I have sorted the gearbox which selects nicely now (rusted selector rods, as you might have guessed) and just stripped the brake master cylinder which was solid, so it should be driveable shortly.

 

 

Good news Simon !

 

You cannot keep a good Bedford down :-D

[Bodger Baz]

While working on my Bedford, under the gunge I've found a small plate recording the engine being reconditioned by Vauxhall Motors in '2. 50', which I take as Feb 1950. Not having Service experience I've no knowledge of what might have been standard practise but I'm surprised this wasn't done by the forces own workshops. Were there certain jobs done at certain times 'in house' but during other periods it was considered cheaper/more expediant / whatever to get a factory job done? Also found under the gunge that the engine number is not what is on the logbook so I must get that seen to as soon as everything opens back up!

 

 

The engine in my Bedford OXC has a Vauxhall motors rebuild plate from 1952 and my engine number is for an OY! It also has stamped into the head and block 24-7-1947, which i am assuming was the first time it was rebuild???

[No Signals]

The engine in my Bedford OXC has a Vauxhall motors rebuild plate from 1952 and my engine number is for an OY! It also has stamped into the head and block 24-7-1947, which i am assuming was the first time it was rebuild???

 

Whereabouts for the stamping? I'm sure there is nothing else on the head but the block I am still giving the once over. Never know, might be some pattern to this.