Recovery and Towing

[Metroman]

How not to go to the seen of a recovery.

 

 

[Richard Farrant]

How not to go to the seen of a recovery.

 

 

From memory ,the maximum angle for a Foden Recovery is 27 degrees, not a lot, their problem is the high centre of gravity with crane jib.

 

No excuse for tipping it over though because this fact is drummed into the operators.

[Metroman]

Not bad to watch, recovering a 432, tracks aren't turning, should it free wheel.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taGonGLc_tM

[abn deuce]

True no sign that they were helping the operation by powering the vehicle , I saw no sign of the tracks moving . Thats a Lot of cable 300 yards or more !

[Metroman]

Getting paid for having fun :-D

[Marmite!!]

Here's what you all need...

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280255253785&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=018

[Tony B]

Actually Land Rover do a good guide to winching. Marshalling at various events can also give a lot of prctical experience.

[Grasshopper]

Mike has a version of this book which includes a section on breaking tank tracks using C4.

[Tony B]

Does that work on 432s as well? :cool2: Can Jack add it to Military manuals?

Also was the 432 a British version of M113 American APC or a complete new design?

[antarmike]

Maybe my comments will annoy some people but winching isn't really dangerous. Usually there is no practical way of holding the winch vehicle on soft ground so that you can overload the winch rope.

 

A Matador winch rope has a breaking strain of about 18 tons and the winch is rated at 7. An explorer has a 22 ton breaking strain cable and a 12 ton winch. etc.

 

I have been doing winch recovery/ heavy winching for 20 years and only ever broken one winch cable. And that was using a Matador to pull out Ash tree roots. The rope was round the tree and back onto itself using a C hook. This intrinsically weakens the rope at the point the C hook attches the rope back to itself. THe Mat was timbe rigged with proper attached ground anchors.

 

For the normal use of a winch when the rope is kept straight and the eye on the cable goes to a shackle, onto an eye ot towhook of the vehicle being recovered, there is practically no chance of the cable breaking.

 

Oh and when I broke the cable it didn.t flail around like a banshee, it fell harmlessly to the ground.

 

 

This is typical of the stuff I have recovered, and the pull required to move a vehicle that has lost traction on a muddy showfield ( which is I believe what we are talking about in this thread) , doesn't come close to what it takes to extricate something like this.

 

Come on, get real and stop inventing risks (or exagerating them beyond what is reasoonable)

Edited August 17, 2008 by antarmike

[gritineye]

The rope was round the tree and back onto itself using a C hook. This intrinsically weakens the rope at the point the C hook attches the rope back to itself.

Oh and when I broke the cable it didn.t flail around like a banshee, it fell harmlessly to the ground.

 

Mike, what you describe here is pretty much the same as i described in this post.

 

After the recovery was completed I discovered that the idiot LR owner had wrapped my nearly new rope (lovely sliced in heavy thimble) tight back on itself with a shackle on the rope, this had cut it at least half way through, too scary to think about!

 

I was using the correct rope for a capstan winch, which has almost no stretch, had I been using a twisted nylon rope (as I have seen others use) and the shackle had cut right through the rope it would have been a mess.

 

Whilst you are probably right as regards the rally field usage, you've learned from your mistakes, but inexperienced people buy a winch equipped MV and get asked to do all sorts of daft things with it, better try to spread the word of caution on a public forum. Common sense isn't actually very common out there.

 

No offense meant

Edited August 17, 2008 by gritineye

[antarmike]

I has an 80" land Rover with both the front and the rear capstan Winch. The rear winch was made by Aeroparts and bolted to the rear 6 spline PTO.

 

Using the front Capstan was a doddle because the rope went onto the Capstan under a horizontal roller. The rear winch had a bare Capstan and no rollers. You had to be very careful that the incoming rope didn't ride up and crossover the Rope already on the capstan or else you were in trouble. You couldn't release the pull, and at this point you had to kill the engine and reverse the winch. As far as I know I had the only surviving rear winch. I sold it to Dunsfold Land Rover museum.

Edited August 17, 2008 by antarmike

[antarmike]

Rear Capstan winch for Land-Rover

[antarmike]

 

Whilst you are probably right as regards the rally field usage, you've learned from your mistakes, but inexperienced people buy a winch equipped MV and get asked to do all sorts of daft things with it, better try to spread the word of caution on a public forum. Common sense isn't actually very common out there.

 

No offense meant

 

But equally I often attempt to carry out a very safe winch recovery, and some stupid jerk, in a Hi-Vis Safety officer's jacket (with absolutely no experience) comes along and tells me I can't do it. And Putting alarmist messages up on a public forum only increases the hysteria and over reaction to winched recovery, which because of the strength of the rope compared to the pull required to get a stuck vehicle moving, is safer than standing on the pavement of an average town.

[gritineye]

It is still possible to get a tangle on the capstan even with a roller fitted if you have too many turns on it, so I use a kill switch on a lead.

[croc]

A few years ago I ran an off road site. I had to ban the local landrover club from doing "snatch" recoverys (don't even start on kinetic ropes) before they killed someone. I have seen all sorts of recoverys and the safest have always been with winches, the whole process is slower and more controlled.

[TooTallMike]

Here's what you all need...

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280255253785&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=018

 

Thanks a bunch. I was high bidder on that... :argh:

[Marmite!!]

Thanks a bunch. I was high bidder on that... :argh:

 

 

Sorry but blame eBay for that one mate.... they're the ones who decided to hide all the bidders names, only way we would avoid this happening again would to ban all eBay links on the forum but I expect nobody wants that...

[TooTallMike]

Just looked at the bid history and I was outbid by the original 2 bidders before me anyway so it doesn't matter. High bidder is new, could be someone on here - if so, any chance of a photocopy of it :-D?

 

Steelsoldiers has banned links to live auctions but I agree that's not the way for HMVF.

 

- Mike

[N.O.S.]

Maybe my comments will annoy some people but winching isn't really dangerous.....

 

I have been doing winch recovery/ heavy winching for 20 years and only ever broken one winch cable........

 

Oh and when I broke the cable it didn.t flail around like a banshee, it fell harmlessly to the ground.......

 

Come on, get real and stop inventing risks (or exagerating them beyond what is reasonable)

 

Well, I'm not sure it's so much about annoying people Mike, as questioning the validity of the whole thread :confused:

Am I annoyed? No, I'm absolutely furious :argh:

 

 

So much so that I feel compelled to make the following comments:

 

Have you really not learned in your 20 years experience that winching has the potential to be highly dangerous?

Have you never considered the possibility that you were extremely lucky with your broken rope?

The point is you shouldn't have broken it in the first place.

Was the rope damaged prior to this incident? (point already made in this thread).

You've also admitted to rigging it incorrectly (point already made in this thread)

And what about insurance / liability? I suspect that your machines are covered by commercial/business insurance - the point I made in this thread was to make people aware that IF anything were to go wrong (and thanks to some of the excellent posts, by now everyone should be aware that it could go wrong big time) someone might be held to account, so be very aware of the risks you take.

 

Have you never looked at a winch rope in appalling condition on a preserved MV and thought "Oh dear, I hope that never gets put to use"?

 

I've not had anywhere near the amount of winching experience as you, but I've had enough to be very aware of the inherent dangers, and the need to approach the task responsibly in order to minimise risks (point already made in this thread).

 

I for one thought it was an excellent subject to discuss on the forum, and 10/10 to TonyB for starting it off!

 

In my view all the posts made so far have all been very valid, and when done in the now classic HMVF style of blending good advice / relevant experiences and of course humour, the result is a well-balanced thread which hopefully will encourage any budding winchers / recovery artists to approach the task with the right attitude, and to act responsibly.

 

And if it puts off a few who may take the view that their equipment is perhaps not in the best of condition, that might not be a bad thing.

 

Please re-read your post Mike, and if you really believe that we should all post in a responsible way on a public forum such as HMVF, then PLEASE make some alterations.

 

:tup::

[gritineye]

Not really of any use but interesting any way. A chap I know who is not given to wild exaggeration, once told me that when doing a very heavy recovery job with an ARV in very low light conditions, the winch rope was starting to glow dull cherry red. :sweat:

[abn deuce]

I think it was mentioned on here some time ago that the Spec's for the winch cable used on the CCKW at least was a combination of exterior metal wire with a hemp rope core hence it being called wire rope . That when it failed it parted with less violence due to the hemp rope.

I agree that a heavy cloth draped or tied to the cable is a good idea and to keep others well away from the reach of a broken cable and that one inspect's the cable every time its used .

[Tony B]

N.O.S. , Mike, peace be upon this place friends! We all play with large potentially lethal bits of kits. MOST importantly the general ethos of this site is saftey and a good public image for MV's. Both of you work for that. :flowers:

[croc]

As I stated earlier, I believe winching is much safer than other methods of dynamic recovery, because of the level of control available when using a winch. I would sway towards Antarmikes point that the danger levels are overplayed.

The horror stories seem to come from two areas;

1. offshore/fishing where many more factors come into play than a winching scenario on land. e.g. even a small swell can create massive additional forces.

2. 4x4 recreational use of small electric winches. It was possible (may still be) to buy a winch with a greater pull rating than the break strain of the cable it was fitted with.

 

For the general purposes of this forum neither of these apply as we are dealing with PTO driven equipment, where, as Mike pointed out, the rating of the winch is greater than that of the cable.

 

Here goes with a few points to think about.

 

1. The condition of the cable, check it out for damage and if it's knackered don't use it. More importantly don't damage it in the first place. In my experiance most damage occurs through poor spooling under tension, particularly when the cable is allowed to bunch at one end of the drum. The usual cause of this is poor rigging of the pull. This is less of a problem when using something with like a Matador as the fairleads are some distance from the drum and the cable tends to lay better. Using a rope dressing to lubricate it properly helps greatly.

 

2. Putting a blanket over the cable is a waste of time, I suspect it is unheard of on a fishing boat. If the pull is rigged properly, the cable snapping is not an issue. If there is a significant risk of a failure in the rig then re-rig it, rather than rely on an old coat.

 

3. "Always use gloves to guide the cable onto the drum"

If the cable is in good condition it should not be an issue.

If the cable is not in good condition it shoud not be being used.

If you need to guide it onto the drum, re-rig it.

If you really need to guide the cable, using a bar or a sling with a shackle is a better way of pushing and pulling it about.

It is probably more important to use gloves when using wire slings as they tend to get abused.

 

4. The weakest point of the rig is quite likely to be the attatchment point of whatever is being recovered. (wire slings again) Towing eyes are suprisingly easy to rip off. I once watched the official recovery crew at a 4x4 trial rip the entire front bumper off a lightweight by snatching it.

 

5. The best bit of safety advice I ever heard was courtesy of my dad. "never put your fingers where you wouldn't put your pri*k"

[Tony B]

I like number 5, :-D Any tips from anyone of re laying the wire, I always seem to struggle to get the cable back on properly.