Ward La France Restoration Project Part III

[TooTallMike]

For one moment I thought you meant White as in the manufacturer...

 

So I will ask again, what is the best diesel ENGINE conversion for a WLF:confused:

Oh I see :-D

I put a 1994 220hp turbo Cummins C in mine which for me is the perfect conversion. Low end torque is poor so if you drop the clutch it stalls - In my opinion this is good as it means the drivetrain isn't going to be overloaded at low revs. You'd have to KNOW you were doing it. If I add the aftercooler I'll get a little more hp but I don't need it. Fuel economy is good and it goes up hills. Top speed is unaffected as the red line is pretty much as for the petrol.

 

Other conversions I've come across include:

Leyland 600

Leyland 680

Leyland Power Plus

Henschel

Deutz

Hispano Suiza

250 Cummins

Continental 6602 (10l petrol)

DAF

Gardner

Fuller roadranger gearbox

Edited June 5, 2008 by TooTallMike

[N.O.S.]

Just to be different, I have a Cummins 6B turbo intercooler (210hp if you can cool the charge air) sitting in front of my Series 4, waiting for me to get organised.....:coffee:

 

Not too long, flywheel housing is same size (SAE 3) so no conversion ring required, not too torquey lowdown (gearbox input shaft is quite modestly proportioned), sounds more like petrol than lumpy bumpy diesel.

 

Will it work? I hope so, but if not I'll be measuring up TTM's conversion :cool2:

 

680 means pushing radiator forward (as does 220/250 Cummins I would think) which spoils truck, DAF is very easy conversion. 6B turbo (150hp) gives similar pathetic torque curve as the Continental petrol - :shake:

 

But what engine has Heliops got in his back pocket?

[TooTallMike]

But what engine has Heliops got in his back pocket?

If he thought he was breaking things now, what's it gonna be like with that in it...

 

Worth continuing from NOS's mention of the bellhousing issue: the original Continental engine and Fuller gearbox are SAE 3 (smallest size), most of the engines on my list are SAE 1 (largest size) or SAE 2 (like my C), therefore adapter plates and spacers are necessary which adds to the complexity of the conversion. As Tony also notes, most of those older engines need the bonnet to be extended as they generate their power by being BIG. The newer engines such as Cummins B & C have similar or greater power outputs but in a much more compact unit and revving higher because a lot of their power comes from turbos rather than cubic inches.

 

In terms of stretched bonnets, this is one of the more hideous ones in my photo collection (dunno what engine it's got though, also note art deco cab roof!):

 

[Markheliops]

Er - too technical for me.

 

I am sure Mike can enlighten you too the conversion as fitted in the spare parts Ward.

 

I can say the front end has been extended but to be honest, whoever carried out the conversion has done a very good job of it. They even re-routed the front winch propshaft to enable use of the front winch. Many Ward engine conversions lose the use of their front wiches due to space etc.

 

I will take a picture of the "other" Ward when I am done the farm again. As far as I can remember, the engine is a Leyland something or other, as fitted to old Scammells - but TTM will be able to give you the full details.

 

Markheliops

[TooTallMike]

Someone said it's a 680?

 

What do the experts think?:

 

 

[radiomike7]

Looks like a pre power plus 680 to me.

 

Mike

[TooTallMike]

Looks like a pre power plus 680 to me.

 

Mike

Any chance of a quick run-down on identifying features for 600, 680 & power plus for those of us not familiar with them?

- Mike

[Bodger Baz]

This one had a V6 or V8 (cant remember!) Duetz air cooled engine, it was very close fit to the chassis rails and wings.

Apperantly it drives very nice.

 

Baz

[radiomike7]

Any chance of a quick run-down on identifying features for 600, 680 & power plus for those of us not familiar with them?

- Mike

 

Struggling to find pics, but here is one of a 680pp 200bhp - note the injector pipes are outboard of the exhaust manifold and protected by a heat shield, unlike the standard version. http://www.mvtshropshire.co.uk/scammell%20for%20sale.htm

 

As with with many large UK diesels of that era, the number refers to the cubic capacity in inches.

[N.O.S.]

While you're talking techy, one of the many reasons why the 6B sits in front of the WLF (and not in it) is the long task (not to be rushed :coffee:) of contemplating whether the Cummins flywheel housing is strong enough to take the weight of the WLF gearbox, a Fuller heavyweight by any standards. Found an iron housing to replace th ali one, but still think we may need a helper spring cross - mounted above the box (just in case....).

 

Oh the joys of bu$£ering about with something which was perfectly ok in the first place, for want of a good petrol lump.

 

Food for thought, Mark!

 

p.s. Just discovered that the Fuller box should mate up to a SAE 1,2 or 3 flywheel housing. So, if the diesel engine comes with clutch etc it might pay to use the flyweel housing and clutch assy off that :idea:

 

Anyway, back to watching Mark's repairs progress :tup::

[TooTallMike]

p.s. Just discovered that the Fuller box should mate up to a SAE 1,2 or 3 flywheel housing.

Clarification required here... :tup::

[HWade]

Hello Gents

 

After reading about what diesel to fit in the ward, a friend of mine has a Leyland 600 for sale it can be seen up and running and is in great shape. For more details you can email me at Hwade111@aol.com and I can forward you contact details.

 

Regards

 

Howard.

[N.O.S.]

Clarification required here...

Manuals (e.g. TM9-1795A) give spec of gearbox as:

 

Make Fuller

Model 5A-620

Mounting Unit power plant

Clutch Housing SAE 1,2 or 3

 

Now I take this to mean that there is a selection of mounting holes machined on front face of gearbox case to allow it to mate up with respective holes on rear face of SAE 1, 2 or 3 clutch housings.

 

Can anyone who has taken a housing off a box confirm this?

 

It is possible that it means Fuller supply a specific clutch housing to each of these three sizes :???

 

Don't know of a listing of standard gearbox to housing dimensions, like there is for the flywheel to clutch housings (e.g. SAE 2)

Edited June 7, 2008 by N.O.S.

[AndyFowler]

This beauty on Milweb ! http://www.milweb.net/classifieds/large_image.php?ad=43209&cat=4

[TooTallMike]

Manuals (e.g. TM9-1795A) give spec of gearbox as:

 

Make Fuller

Model 5A-620

Mounting Unit power plant

Clutch Housing SAE 1,2 or 3

 

Now I take this to mean that there is a selection of mounting holes machined on front face of gearbox case to allow it to mate up with respective holes on rear face of SAE 1, 2 or 3 clutch housings.

 

Can anyone who has taken a housing off a box confirm this?

 

It is possible that it means Fuller supply a specific clutch housing to each of these three sizes :???

 

Don't know of a listing of standard gearbox to housing dimensions, like there is for the flywheel to clutch housings (e.g. SAE 2)

I took the bellhousing off my spare gearbox - IIRC it's held on by 6 large nuts onto studs. This may be a standard layout which allows the three sizes of housing to be fitted. If that is the case, it's probably still standard to their gearboxes so they shouldn't be hard to get hold of.

- Mike

[Degsy]

I have been watching this thread but reluctant to post, however I would not want to see you go to all the trouble of fitting the Cummins only to find it unsuitable. In my experience Cummins are all top end power and gutless at low revs thereby making them unsuitable for your purposes, perhaps you would be better off doing a swop for an engine with more low down grunt.

[gritineye]

I have been watching this thread but reluctant to post, however I would not want to see you go to all the trouble of fitting the Cummins only to find it unsuitable. In my experience Cummins are all top end power and gutless at low revs thereby making them unsuitable for your purposes, perhaps you would be better off doing a swop for an engine with more low down grunt.

 

I tend to agree with this as the Cummins L10 in my Explorer is flat and gutless below 1200rpm, fine above that and cruising at 15-1800 rpm, which seems to suit an overall top gear (engine to rear wheels) ratio of 8.35 to 1, if your gearing is much higher than this you will be 'rowing it along' with the gearstick. It suits an Explorer fine though.

[Grasshopper]

C series in Mikes Ward seems to suit the vehicle quite nicely. Has enough low end grunt when towing too. Never needed 1st gear since replacing the petrol engine.

[gritineye]

Edit to my last post, AWESOME above 1200 rpm!

[Grasshopper]

I think a scammel may require more low end power to get rolling than a Ward LaFarance. They seem to get going pretty easil, despite the 10 tyres!

[TooTallMike]

I'd say the beauty of retrofitting an engine which has less low-end torque is that it drives like the petrol and I think it's much kinder to the drivetrain. If my foot were to slip off the clutch, the engine would stall, whereas with an engine with a grunty low end it might break something. Depends what you want to use the vehicle for as well: off road my engine might be less suitable, for example due to lack of engine braking, but on road it is absolutely perfect. (Already over 3000 miles in 2 years) For on-road use the small engine capacity (8.3l) combined with the turbo also makes it quite economical.

 

- Mike

[Degsy]

I was thinking in terms of towing and off road use and should have made this point in my post, please don't think I would presume to tell you what to do with your truck, I entirely agree for purely on road use a Cummins should be fine.

[TooTallMike]

It's ok Degsy, I wasn't taking it as criticism . I agree entirely with your comment about the torque/power curve for the Cummins but that was actually one of the things which finally convinced me to carry out the conversion as it closely matched that of the petrol. I was very concerned about the possibility of too much torque breaking things, bearing in mind I now have 100hp more, so I wanted it to reach the drivetrain 'softly'. I would think a Leyland, Gardner, AEC or similar conversion would have to be driven very gently. Interesting to see Gritineye's comment about the L10 in his Explorer as it very much reflects my own experience with the C series. I cruise at 1800rpm / 40mph and it sits very comfortably there and maintains speed uphill without having to change gear regardless of the load on the back. This was the primary intention of the install hence I regard it to have been a success .

 

It's interesting to see different people's opinions of how to approach these engineering challenges and all observations are welcome. This discussion shows how people's thoughts may differ depending on what use is envisaged for the vehicle. The WLF was primarily intended to be an on-road truck with the capability to go off-road for recovery and tactical purposes. Considering the lack of power from the petrol engine, any diesel has to be an improvement... (Hello Mark... :flowers:)

[Degsy]

You obviously thought long and hard before choosing the Cummins and I cannot fault your logic, glad it has been such a success.

[gritineye]

Mike, I came to the same conclusions as you did by very much the same thought process, and was expecting the off road performance to suffer, and resisted a Diesel conversion for many years for that reason .

 

In some ways it has, gone is the ability to trickle along at 300 rpm and then power up a very steep hill all the way to 2400 rpm if needed, then lift off at the top and drop down to 300 rpm for the decent on the other side.

 

Tick-over is around 700 rpm when hot now and I need to go up a gear to avoid wheel-spin when the power comes in, which means I have to change down a gear at the top for the decent, which is not so controlled now.

 

I have recently improved the throttle control by moving the rod linkages in relation to the pivots of the bell cranks, (drilled new holes) this has "geared down" the pedal so any bouncing around produces less unwanted input.

 

All this is may seem rather extreme for many people reading this, many owners may never attempt such things, and therefore miss the point of our concerns, but the main attraction of Scammell Explorers, WLFs and such, is often the fun to be had off road with them.

 

As you say it's nice to see other people's opinions

Edited June 16, 2008 by gritineye