Triumph 3SW ?

[RussH]

Hi, I've recently acquired what I believe is a Triumph 3SW, at least that is what is indicated on the engine stamp. The frame number on the headstock is H 270061 and I've not been able to find any reference to a Triumph frame in this sequence, can anyone throw any light on this ?

I live in France and took the bike from someone living near the swiss / german border region. The bike has never been registered that I can see, the previous owner had it in his workshop around 20yrs, untouched. 

To my eye, the frame is correct for the 3S although no indication of a field stand as would have been added to 3SW. The tank is SW/SE as would have been supplied for the french market in civil configuration. Forks need to be rebuilt but look complete. Overall, the engine appears in good shape, I'm missing the carb and magdyno so starting is not currently an option !

Engine turns over freely on the kickstart, bores and valves look ok. Gearbox cycles through the gears smoothly (with a more satisfying click than my modern BMW !)

A lot of the ancillaries were secured with metric bolts - not surprising if modded in france over its life ! - I'll be looking for the correct one's lol

Primary casing is alloy - I was expecting pressed steel for SW ?

I'd like to have more information on the frame number before proceeding too far with the refurb, is it really an SW or SE (which will determine the colour, to start with) or is it destined to be  to be a pretty bitza ?

 

Thanks in advance for your help - and comments !

 

Russ

 

 

IMG_2969.pdf IMG_2972.pdf

Edited January 2 by RussH
frame number corrected

[welbike]

Hi Russ, 

Am sure Ron will be here shortly, he knows a lot more about Triumphs than me, but looking at the engine number it could be an impressed 1940 WD engine, a picture of the frame number (under the saddle?) would help too. The front mudguard is from a German prewar/wartime DKW, maybe the rear too, with the carrier.

That would indicate a "beute krad" with German parts added.

Cheers,

Lex

Edited January 2 by welbike
spelling

[RussH]

Hi Lex,

Thanks for your comments,

Interesting for the mudguards - the rear is hinged, just behind the carrier and I wasn't able to find that detail on a Triumph part.

Photo of frame number attached, number is on the headstock, no markings under the saddle.

IMG_3031.pdf

[Ron]

Yes Lex is right. It's an impressed civilian model 3S (Not a 3SW) The Census number with a large C stamped on the crankcase is how they seem to have done it on the impressed bikes. However I'm mystified by the frame number. The lightweight Triumphs were stamped TL and the heavyweight bikes were stamped TH. 

It must have been captured after Dunkirk and the German parts added as usual.  Ron 

[RussH]

Ron, thanks for your comments.

I’m a bit puzzled that it’s an impressed civil model, please excuse that I’m very new to the subject. By impressed, it means the ( engine) was taken by the war dept. from civilian stock before the engine was serialised by Triumph ? The census number used for reference being a military reference and not a Triumph engine serial number ?

I understand that definitive records are unlikely, especially taken that the factory and records were destroyed around that production time, but I’m interested to know views on the practice employed at the time.

wrt the frame, can you point me towards any references for dimensions / geometry and differences between the Triumph TL and TH frames. I’d like to be able to confirm one way or another that the frame is correct for the engine. I guess it will make the difference between a historic vehicle or a paperweight with an interesting story, when it comes to registration, unfortunately.

Thanks, Russ

[Ron]

Military vehicles were ordered under contracts to all the manufacturers to War Office specifications. But to satify the imediate demand (Especially in light of the initial "invasion" by the BEF in 1940 and the subsequent losses) civilian vehicles were taken (impressed) in their thousands, from the factories or dealerships. 

They were given a census or serial number like any other vehicle, which is esentually its WO registration number. The prefix "C" denotes a motorcycle. This is usually seen painted on the sides of a motorcycle petrol tank.

The impressed motorcycles were often still in their civy paint and chrome. Like this AJS which has also had it's serial number painted on the number plate.

I'm sure Rik and Jan can add to the information. Ron 

[Ron]

PS. Your frame looks right for the 3S the TH frame was for the 500 and 600cc models and would have been fitted with the bigger forks and tank. The ally parts are correct for a 3S. I think the 3SE (economy model) had tin parts.

As an aside. After the losses at Dunkirk with a serious need to re-equip. Triumph offered their 5S (500cc SV) engine from civilian stock. The 500 SV had initially been rejected by the WO. But an order was placed for a few of these to be built exactly to the 3SW spec. Although these were officially ordered as the 5SW, no W was ever stamped on the civy engines. We also discovered that the frame number was moved to the left side headstock, somewhere between TL 19354 and TL 19652.  Ron

 

Edited January 3 by Ron

[Ron]

Regarding your frame number? There seems too many digits for the period. The 39 and 40 3SW's only had 4 or 5 digits and that H is a different font. I don't know if the German's bothered to re-stamp anything? But as Jan might confirm, machines taken on by the locals have been known to be disguised and to even to match foreign documents.  Ron

 

 

[rewdco]

Small history lesson: On September 1st 1939, Hitler invades Poland. As a reaction, England declares war against Germany on September 3rd 1939. The following months (September 1939 – May 1940) are known as “the phoney war”. On Sept 11th 1939, the British Expeditionary Force (four divisions, 158.000 men) left for France, to defend the borders with Belgium and Germany against a possible German invasion. But until May 1940, when Hitler invaded Holland, Belgium and France, there was not a lot of fighting activity. Both camps were using this period to expand their armies… 

A lot of civilian bikes that were in showrooms etc. were pressed into service while still in their “civvy” trim. They were quite often hand painted all over, with whatever paint that was available at the camp where they were taken to. Norman Vanhouse, who was a despatch rider in the British Expeditionary Forces in France and thus an eyewitness, describes in an article in The Classic Motorcycle (October 1989) how the impressed motorcycles were painted:
“... every bike was a drab, dark green spectre of botched painting, self-inflicted whilst parked by the glorious Loire. Tins of paint and brushes had been produced from the lorries in the convoy and each man was charged with painting his own bike. We even entered into the spirit of the occasion by daubing handfuls of roadside dust on the wet paint to achieve more effective camouflage…”

The picture below shows an impressed civilian machine (in this case a Norton from Claude Rye’s shop) being collected by the Army (The MotorCycle, December 14th 1939).

 

This is the page from the “Chilwell List” with the late 1939 - early 1940 impressed motorcycle contracts:

 

XXX

 

The fact that WD numbers 40000 to 46000 were “not taken up” contradicts the fact that on this Triumph we can clearly see census number C42589, stamped on the crankcases (typical for that period). Well, it was a hectic period, mistakes must have been made…

 

 

Here’s a close one: another impressed civilian Triumph with census number C47377, "somewhere in France” in November 1939:

 

 

On May 10th 1940, Hitler invades Belgium and Holland. By May 14th 1940, the German tanks had crossed the river Meuse and had opened up a fifty-mile gap in the Allied front. Six days later they reached the Channel. When he heard the news, Winston Churchill, who had just become prime minister, ordered the implementation of Operation Dynamo: a plan to evacuate the British Expeditionary Forces troops and their equipment, along with the remnants of the French army, from the French port of Dunkirk. Between 27th May and 4th June, a total of nearly 700 ships brought 338.226 people back to Britain. All heavy equipment was abandoned and left in France. Ellis' official history “The War in France & Flanders 1939 – 1940” gives the following statistics:

 

Vehicles shipped to France: 68.618

Lost: 63.879
Brought back:  4.739

Motorcycles: 21.081

Lost: 20.548
Brought back:  533

This impressed civilian Triumph made it back to Blighty:

 

 

But this one was captured by the Germans, and started a new life “under new ownership”:

 

 

And that’s exactly what must have happened to your bike Russ...

[Ron]

I'm just found out that the Germans did re-stamp vehicles as follows:-

Army (Das heer) =H

Navy (Krieg Marine) =KM

Air force (Luftwaffe) = LW

Waffen SS = WSS

Afrika Corpse = A (palm tree)K 

So I think this solves this one. But as Lex mentioned, the original frame number was often stamped again on the top of the saddle tube lug. The 3HW's had a date ie TEC 6.44.  

 

Ron

 

PS typing together there Jan

Edited January 3 by Ron

[welbike]

Interesting!! where did you find that snippet Ron? 

Just checked my DKW numbers, and while they had 6 digits, the ones starting with 27 are from 1934/1935, but never had a prefix, so we can probably rule that out. (just an idea I had, that maybe they not only used the DKW mudguards, but also the frame number)

Cheers,

Lex

Edited January 3 by welbike
additional info

[Ron]

Brian Tillin the Triumph singles guy just phoned me with this info. He actually studied German and has researched the subject.

 

Nothing carved in stone of course. But it makes some sence to me now.  

 

Ron

[welbike]

Ok, thanks, I'll write this down, also interesting is the Chilwell document from Jan!

Lex

[Ron]

Yes and there are reems of them in the back pages of O&M with serial numbers but not many specific makes or frame numbers. 

I have a compresensive list of 5 different models of impressed AJS for 1940 which includes their frame/eng numbers. 

 

Ron

[RussH]

Wow, what a fantastic amount of information you've been able to gather together - much appreciated !

One point which I don't quite follow is the fact that the engine and probably the bike had been assembled prior to being impressed, but neither engine number nor frame number was assigned (stamped) by Triumph. Obviously in the heat of the moment there would have been a rush to assemble and ship machines for the war effort, probably the case here, as you mentioned Rewdco, no doubt mistakes were, understandably, made.

With such a time line, my feeling is to restore the bike in the current build configuration - frame engine and mudguards - too good a story to lose !

Thanks again for your inputs, I'm still amazed.

I'll be needing help on specific details of the rebuild but will start new threads for those questions or is it preferred to use other forums for detailed engine specific mechanical questions ?

[rewdco]

I think I can see some other numbers on the engine, or are my eyes deceiving me? 

Could this be (the remains of) the engine number I wonder? They are close to where we would expect an engine number, see example below:

Edited January 3 by rewdco

[Ron]

Ha Ha! I've been expanding the picture and straining my eyes too Jan. Would the Germans have ground or peened the numbers out?

As another aside. I've noticed that these early 3SW's awaiting dispersal have the 6" DU 42 headlamps and the forward facing horn, which is a feature on the civy bikes. I've wondered if these were initially 3SE's?  Later 3 and 5SW's had an 8" headlamp and side mounted horn as in the last picture.

Note the the row of civy bikes in the middle. Ron

Edited January 3 by Ron

[garys39]

You might try to sand down the number plates carefully also !

[welbike]

Yes, that's how I found my C number, and a wartime picture in 1940 in France! 

Bike is an early 1940 Royal Enfield Model C. The rider is Captain Keating.

Lex

[RussH]

Wishful thinking for additional numbers I'm afraid !

Good idea to take back the paint on the numberplate, I'll give it a go. From the history proposed it will probably (should) be a German reference.

Edited January 3 by RussH

[79x100]

Lots to think about here. I'm  not sure that I've seen a 40 3S model stamped "3SW", even those from contracts such as C5708 so it may be that the lack of a "W" at this stage did not  indicate a civilian spec.

The "C" number makes no sense and the R.A.S.C. (The 3S / SW was an RASC machine used by them and third-line units) were not very professionally done. The only way though that I could imagine an engine leaving Triumph with no number would be if it had been built as a spare unit. Even that is strange though as I'm not aware that they had any other "Shop" number to identify a build.

I'm fairly certain that the frame number is an over-stamp. The height of the numbers seems greater than on Ron's example and that deep serif on "7" looks typically Continental. If I look at the "0" figures, both seem to have a line across as if there is an indication of a previous number and the gap in the "6"  seems to have been peened to cover something.

Post-war France had extremely tight import controls and locals went to great lengths to put machines back into circulation, using pre-war documentation. The removal of the Triumph logo from the engine casing would have been part of this process too.

Are you aware of the old French registration number ? I believe that some records still exist. They may show what it has been registered as.

Edited January 3 by 79x100

[RussH]

Unfortunately there is no record of previous registration and I spent a couple of hours yesterday rubbing back layers of paint on the numberplate, as suggested by Garys39 and Lex, to no avail. Several layers of paint but no indication of letters or numbers.

A close look at the stamped frame number would indicate that the "H" is a different font than the others but I don't believe that the other numbers have been modified. The number "6" looked suspicious but I think genuine. - I was a metallurgist for a few years and have some experience of searching for cracks and other defects but have to admit that searching for peened out numbers did not come up too often !

You mention a triumph logo on the engine casing, where would this have been - as part of the serial number sequence ?

Edited January 5 by RussH

[Ron]

As I said before. The 6 figure frame number dosen't make any sence to me? Maybe a 5 figure number starting 27, but there's that strange gap between the last two digits??

The only engine logo that I can think of is the one on the oil pump cover, which would be easy to remove. Another small feature between the WD  3/5SW's  and civy, is the single metal badge in the centre of the tank, whereas the civy bikes had a badge on both sides of the tank.......Any tell tale holes?  Ron

Edit:- Oh and the hot cross bun petrol and oil caps versus the civy shark fin caps. 

Edited January 5 by Ron

[rewdco]

On 1/3/2024 at 7:16 AM, Ron said:

PS. Your frame looks right for the 3S the TH frame was for the 500 and 600cc models and would have been fitted with the bigger forks and tank. The ally parts are correct for a 3S. I think the 3SE (economy model) had tin parts.

 

Just found this Belgian price list on an auction site. They call the SE version "Export" or "Tourist". Maybe not relevant at all... 😐

[Ron]

Definitely the economy version. It's the only one under 9000 Francs. Ron