BSA Para Bike info Needed!

[Enigma]

I think you can buy decal paper (water transfer)  to use in a laserprinter. Maybe worth looking into that?

Here a link I found;

https://www.craftycomputerpaper.co.uk/laser-water-slide-decal-paper/

[John Bradshaw]

On 11/20/2022 at 9:58 AM, Le Prof said:

Hi Mike @ferretfixer

Thank you for your reply.

R54799 has now been included. (-: Below are some other known survivors in the same s/n area. There's not much variation, since this is really the final and standard pattern ofthis bike.

Original markings are a rarity, and several of the ones close to yours don't have them any more.

This is R57543, which clearly has the white Patent N°.

But has had the piled rifles erased

Full details here:

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/ww2-bsa-paratrooper-bike.167290/

You seem to have a choice on the piled rifles.

R53105 is slightly before yous, and in near NOS.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/bsa-paratroopers-paratrooper-british-440653139

Slightly later is R57773, which claims to be (and looks) NOS.

 

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/bsa-paratroopers-paratrooper-british-454042430

If I come across any Grip suppliers, I'll let you know.

Best Regards,

Adrian

 

 

[John Bradshaw]

You may have a note of my bicycle's frame number. If not, here you are - it's 22763, cast hinge brackets, BSA on wingnuts, originally painted brown, oversized numeral 2 in frame number. 

[Le Prof]

Hello, @John Bradshaw

 

Welcome to the forum, and taking the time to supply those details.

I had the serial number listed from the Captain Stevens list in Canada, but no additional details.

He noted you as being in Warwickshire. We may have met, since I come from Rugby, and used to do most of the local shows until I emigrated 20 years ago (you will see me on the same listings).

Yours is the last BSA wingnut bike recorded so far (I now have over 300 serials recorded from the production of 60,000+). They are a rare variant, about 1000 to 1500 (roughly 3 to 4%) seem to have had them. The example in Birmingham City Museum is a BSA wingnut type, but I don't have the s/n.

Below is the block including BSA wingnut bikes.

Does yourshave the original forks and crank? If so, could I ask you a couple more questiond to fill in the N/K's ?

Thanks.

Best Regards, Adrian

[John Bradshaw]

1 hour ago, Le Prof said:

Hello, @John Bradshaw

 

Welcome to the forum, and taking the time to supply those details.

I had the serial number listed from the Captain Stevens list in Canada, but no additional details.

He noted you as being in Warwickshire. We may have met, since I come from Rugby, and used to do most of the local shows until I emigrated 20 years ago (you will see me on the same listings).

Yours is the last BSA wingnut bike recorded so far (I now have over 300 serials recorded from the production of 60,000+). They are a rare variant, about 1000 to 1500 (roughly 3 to 4%) seem to have had them. The example in Birmingham City Museum is a BSA wingnut type, but I don't have the s/n.

Below is the block including BSA wingnut bikes.

Does yourshave the original forks and crank? If so, could I ask you a couple more questiond to fill in the N/K's ?

Thanks.

Best Regards, Adrian

On 11/20/2022 at 9:58 AM, Le Prof said:

Hi Mike @ferretfixer

Thank you for your reply.

R54799 has now been included. (-: Below are some other known survivors in the same s/n area. There's not much variation, since this is really the final and standard pattern ofthis bike.

Original markings are a rarity, and several of the ones close to yours don't have them any more.

This is R57543, which clearly has the white Patent N°.

But has had the piled rifles erased

Full details here:

https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/ww2-bsa-paratrooper-bike.167290/

You seem to have a choice on the piled rifles.

R53105 is slightly before yous, and in near NOS.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/bsa-paratroopers-paratrooper-british-440653139

Slightly later is R57773, which claims to be (and looks) NOS.

 

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/bsa-paratroopers-paratrooper-british-454042430

If I come across any Grip suppliers, I'll let you know.

Best Regards,

Adrian

 

 

[John Bradshaw]

Adrian, thanks for your prompt response. I live at Southam now, since 2002, and before that in south Warwickshire.

And thanks for the excerpt from your list.

I'm pleased, of course, that mine is a rare variant. To the best of my knowledge the forks are original, and I'm certain the cranks are, so yes, fire away.

I found the bicycle in Warwickshire in autumn 1972. I now know the identity of the previous owner, a Fr Sheldon, a priest teaching at a junior seminary near Warwick. It had been painted two shades of blue, and I couldn't recover enough of the original finish to be able to retain it. I did, though, find that it had originally been Service brown, and I've recently found more small traces of paint. I'm entirely confident it was originally in that colour.

When I found the bike it was complete and original apart from the paintwork, saddle and stem, grips, rear hub (3 speed Sturmey Archer fitted) and pedals. Fortunately the pedal rod plungers were intact and free. I can't remember details of the tyres.

I'm afraid I stripped thethough  years ago, to 'restore' it. But I'm notoriously slow to do anything, and it's remained dismantled for 30+ years. Rome wasn't built in a day, you know.

Despite a number of house moves I've lost only two screws and nuts (brake shoe retaining). Meanwhile I've gained an original Model 40 saddle and a set of NOS brake blocks. I'm now rebuilding it, with replica pedal rods. It will, of course, be Service brown.

Incidentally, I had a Junior bike when a child. I have a vague memory of walking with my parents to collect it from a BSA factory, though I can't vouch for it.

I await your questions. With good wishes - John Bradshaw  

[Le Prof]

John, thanks for your prompt, and informative response too.

My first ride in a WW2 jeep was from Stockton Village down the A426 to Southam and back, around Christmas 1984. To my knowledge the jeep (and a BSA Parabike), are still interred in a garage in the village.

The questions are a little esoteric, I hope you'll forgive that.

So, your bicycle would have originally had a black enamel undercoat, any sign of that?

There appear to be three forms of crank arms. The earliest have just a flat face, like most bicycles, and may be tapped for bicycle pedals (so probably off the shelf items), as below.

Later bikes have a boss extension, probably to help support the pedal, and these come in two types. An 'early' version, below, which is tubular, with a chamfer:

And a later version, such as @Enigma below, a more conical casting.

Yours is likely to be plain, or the early boss type, they were just coming in when your bike was made.

The attachment of the down tube to the bottom bracket should be welded on yours (left frame in photo below, note frames are upside down) . Later this was improved by using a lugged fitting instead.(right frame)

Photo from @garys39

Yours should have an oil fitting offset to the rear of the bottom bracket, like both above.

Forks come in two types, with peaked or flat shoulders. Peaked are early, are replaced by flat, and then reappear mixed with flat in mid production. Flat are later, and are used exclusively by the end of production.

Peaked. Easy to see because there is an inverted V in the base of the bracket too.

Flat, again, the base of the bracket is flat, along with the shoulders.

Finally, very early tommy bars on the handlebar quick release were welded direct to the nut. Later, they were inserted in drilled holes in the nut. Yours should be the second type (photo from Enigma), as below.

I hope that makes some sense.

Best of Luck with the restoration. It's getting harder to find the pieces, but it sounds like you've got that covered. I look forward to seeing the results, and feel free to contact me should you think I can help in any way.

Best Regards,

Adrian

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Le Prof

[John Bradshaw]

Adrian, thank you. I wonder if jeep and bicycle remain in Stockton. I've a few friends living there.

I'll answer most of your questions now.

1.  No trace of black undercoat.

2.  Crank bosses your second type - see image. And tapped. Bike had proper pedals when I found it.

3.  Bottom bracket welded. Don't know about the oiler - I'll check tomorrow.  Frame is in the garage/workshop, and it's raining heavily atm.

4.  Tommy bar second type, through the hexagon, as you suggested. Unfortunately the hex disintegrated not long after I found the bike, so I'm having a replica bolt made by a chum. The old one was very poor material. Melted down church railings, or something similar, I suppose.

I'll check tomorrow and respond to your other questions. Cheers.

 

John

 

[John Bradshaw]

Adrian, your other questions

1.  I attach images of the forks and bottom bracket. I hope they address the details that interest you. I couldn't open the two links at the end of your post, so I don't know if my images are of use. Let me know if not.

[Le Prof]

Hi John,

The weather's a bit iffy here too, 30+°C, sun and storms, but totally usual for the time of year.

Thanks for your replies. Every little helps. (-:

The threaded crank arms I dobt I'll be able to resolve. It is rare that the original type pins have been removed, without pedals then being fitted, and so difficult to know if thee threading is original or not.

I do have a good photo of R33587's crank arm interior, showing no threading, so this is likely to be the case for at least half of the bikes made, and all with the the later 'conical' boss.

 

I look forward to your other details.

Best Regards,

Adrian

[Le Prof]

Hi again, john.

As it turns out we were writing at the same time (-:

So, flat topped fork (all the BSA wingnut types seem to be like this, soon after peaked returns for several thousand examples, then flat is back until the end), so the fork is the original, or at least the correct type.

Incidentally, red primer was used towards the end of production instead of the black enamel (-:

The downtube is welded direct to the bottom bracket, as you said. This went to the lugged version somewhere near R30500.

The crank arm photo is very interesting, since it seems the boss is welded to the arm. I've discussed this possibility with others, that BSA modified standard arms in stock when they knew there was a problem, and cast them later, but this is the first good example of the welded type I've seen. It could also mean that the chamfer on the outside edge originally occurred on both edges, so as to give a place for the weld bead to penetrate.

I hate to ask this, but I didn't know you had the crank out. Is it possible to take a picture of the two BSA marked cones (one each side?)

There's no urgency, I'm trying to see if they have date code letter on them like the K, H and J seen on these examples. Even just knowing what the letter are would be helpful.

Original photos: Ian Air Pilot

Thank you for you help.

The house with the jeep is probably well known in Stockton, for years there was a tipper open cab CCKW parked in the garden. It may still be there today!

Best Regards,

Adrian

Edited June 19, 2023 by Le Prof

[John Bradshaw]

Adrian, I must disappoint you, I'm afraid. There are BSA emblems on two components,  but I can't discern letters on any of them. There's too much corrosion to tell if there had been letters, or if there never were any. Sorry. On the non-crank side, you'll find the emblem at 3 o'clock on the locking ring and 9 o'clock on the cone.

For the next couple of days the components, apart from frame, forks, crank/chainwheel and bars, are bare metal. I imagine this is rare, so if we can learn anything, let me know. I'll spray with primer shortly. 

To digress slightly, do you have any views on the change of colour from brown to olive drab? I recently came across a document that shines a light on the change and its date. Let me know if this interests you.

I'll ask some chums who live in Stockton if they know of the jeep and bicycle.

Best wishes

 

JB

 

[Le Prof]

Hi John,

Thanks for the excellent quality closeups, it's a pity there's nothing to see. (-:

I cannot think of any bare frame details I need. I appreciate the crank boss one, would it be possible to photo the boss weld on the chainwheel side?

If you are thinking of changing your bike from Brown to Green, no problem from me, it's your bike (-: Your's is a very late brown frame. Apparently some exist with mixed green and brown components, which could be through parts being swapped in service, or because parts were painted up seperately and there was no attempt to match paint colours on assembly.

Any details about colour changes and dates are always welcome, thank you.

For the jeep in Stockton, I know where it is (close to the church). It's just interesting how these things can be hidden away.

Incidentally, I once won the village hall in Stockton in a raffle (-:

It was the fruit and veg shop of the old Co-op building in Rugby. It is a concrete sectional building, and when it came for demolition, it was offered in a raffle to various  social groups in the area. I won, but couldn't find a means of moving it to a new site, so deferred to Stockton... (-:

Again, thanks for your help.

Best Regards,

Adrian

 

[John Bradshaw]

Thanks, Adrian. Love the Co-Op story. I'll send photos of the crank/chain wheel when I re!ember where i put it. I'll need it soon - collect the paint yesterday. S.C.C.2, aka Service Brown, BS381C 499.

On paint, I just posted the following on the FB page.

'Original paint colours. Forgive me if you've seen this information before.

We all know that early bicycles, probably the first 22,000 or so, were painted brown, and later ones green. This is an evidenced account of what shades of brown and green were used, when the change took place, and why.

It's a long document, though interesting, and well-researched. It references Mike Starmer, an author of great authority on 1930s and 1940s vehicle colours, and quotes a number of ACIs (Army Council Instructions). I'm persuaded that it explains convincingly the changes of colour we find on our bicycles, and helps to date some of them.

I hope my post will prompt debate and discussion on this interesting topic.'

https://www.wdnorton.nl/Colours.html 

 

 

John

Edited June 28, 2023 by John Bradshaw
Correction

[Le Prof]

Hi Again, John.

Thanks for the colour information. I need to work through it to see how it relates to observed colours on the bikes.

Resolving the colour question was one of the primary reasons for collecting information. So, I can say this from observation:

The earliest frame I have details for is Lex Shmidt's R923. It is evident that this is in it's original green colour.

Photo Credit: Lex Schmidt

All subsequent frames where I can see the original paint are also green. This appears to be true for all early 'Twin tube' frames, and the beginning of the second pattern frames, up to at least R10779.

The first Brown frame recorded is T13439, which is one of mine. The T number is so far unique, and it also has a Gold BSA transfer, although this could be due to the transfer oxidising in soeme way (I have seen two other original 'Gold' BSA transfers, both on a lot later bikes).

Brown with the occasional green is predominant to about R21047 (which is brown). After that Green becomes more dominant with occasional Browns. R29967 is the last brown I have recorded, your R26135being the penultimate, and both surrounded by Greens.

After R29967, I only record Greens until the last known surviving frame (R62836).

So, generally: -

R923 to around R10779 are Green.

By around T13439 to around R21047 they are mainly Brown

From around R21047 to around R29967 they are mainly Green

From around R29967 to the end they are Green.

So, as a rough estimate, around 10,000 frames of the early Second Pattern bikes were Brown.

It has been suggested to me that the Green used that the start of production, and that at the end were different Greens. But, honestly, I don't have enough good unweathered early and late examples to try to make that call.

Can colours be used to date the bicycle production seequence (which is still unknown)?

One clue is the well known image below of a soldier with an early First Pattern bicycle. This is from the archives of the Imperial War Museum in London. This is from a series of photographs taken on 29th August 1942, and other photos in the series show more examples in use, so this is not a prototype bicycle, and production and delivery must have started a short while before this date.

Photo Credit Lt. Spender.

From observation, this bike was green, and was painted before August 1942. How does that fit with the colour discussion?

This is the appendix from British Standard 987C, 1942, British Standard Camouflage Colours. You may find the official descriptions a bit.... British? (-: This is where the Tea and Coffee references come from.

I havn't yet found a good copy of the right side of this appendix page, but you can see the colours.

So, both the Green and Brown were suggested colours by 1942.

I'm out of time for today, I will get back to this later in the week.

Best Regards,

Adrian

[John Bradshaw]

Adrian, thank you again. That's opened my eyes to the colour of very early bicycles. I'll edit my text in the FB group. 

I've pulled the following sections out of the piece I sent you. It references several ACIs. I wonder if the chronology agrees with your wide range of data. 

ACI 1559, dated 23rd August 1941, ordered a shade of green, Khaki Green No3, for vehicles. And bicycles? 

Then ACI 2202, 8th November 1941, 'warning of a change in camouflage style soon to be introduced' including SCC 2, brown.'

ACI 1160, 30th May 1942, 'called for SCC2 to be the basic colour.'

ACI 1496, 13th October 1943, 'reaffirming that A and B vehicles were to continue to use SCC2 as the basic colour.'

ACI1533, 12th April 1944, 'a new colour, SCC15 Olive Drab, was to be adopted as the new basic camouflage colour for all army equipments.'

 

 

JB 

 

[John Bradshaw]

BTW, Adrian, my bicycle is R22763. 

[Le Prof]

1 hour ago, John Bradshaw said:

BTW, Adrian, my bicycle is R22763. 

Thanks, John. I have it noted correctly on my listings, my mind must just have been thinking of you. So yours is the prepenultimate Brown listed (-:.

 

I need to think about the paint changes. It is obvious that stocks of paint would be used until exhausted, and stocks from different sources may exhaust at different times, so there will be a lag behind order changes.

 

Also, BSA's have been noted with brown and green components. Whils this might just be from army servicing, it is also likely thatparts were painted seperatly, so leading to mismatch in the colour handover periods.

 

Best Regards,

 

Adrian

 

[John Bradshaw]

Prepenultimate. How did you guess it's one of my favourite words?

I'm so impressed by your data and images. Bravo.

 

JB

[Le Prof]

Thanks for your kind words, John.

I really wanted to use preantepenultimate, since I've never had cause to. But not this time.... (-:

Best Regards,

Adrian

 

[garys39]

Here’s a couple of mine, showing different shades of green, the left one is brown though 🙂

[Le Prof]

Hi @garys39

Thanks for the photo. (-:

Do you know if the the lighter green one, second from left, is earlier or later than the dark green on right?

Best Regards,

Adrian

[John Bradshaw]

Thanks, Gary. A useful photograph. JB

[John Bradshaw]

I'll try again. Computer failure halfway through. JB

 

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by John Bradshaw
Computer failure

[Le Prof]

Hi John @John Bradshaw

Oops, better luck next time (-:

Best Regards,

Adrian