Eager Beaver starter problem, help please.

[Mk3iain]

The starter motor on my EB has failed after years of service sadly.   The gear teeth are worn badly and spring missing on the inertia start portion.   I did have this repaired before, 10 years ago or so, but cannot remember who did it.

Does anyone know of a repair shop or a reasonable replacement ?  I have seen them for £800 or so.  It is a CAV  CA45F24-3M.  10 teeth.

 

I would prefer to have it refurbished if possible.

 

Many thanks  !

 

Forgot to add;   The spacer has suffered a bit of damage, not too bad but it would be nice to replace it.  Does anyone know the part number or of the existence of a replacement?

Edited July 15, 2022 by Mk3iain
A bit more.

[Richard Farrant]

Hi Ian,

if the pinion teeth are badly worn and this has happened before, it may be wise to inspect the flywheel teeth as they could be damaged. If you are looking through the hole where starter fits, go all the way around as engines sometimes tend to stop in one or to places so damage may be local.

[Mk3iain]

7 minutes ago, Richard Farrant said:

Hi Ian,

if the pinion teeth are badly worn and this has happened before, it may be wise to inspect the flywheel teeth as they could be damaged. If you are looking through the hole where starter fits, go all the way around as engines sometimes tend to stop in one or to places so damage may be local.

Thanks Richard !   The last time it was repaired the shaft had twisted due engaging a turning engine, my fault...

The damage to the pinion is pronounced and it would be wise to check the ring gear.  I may well be spurred on to change the clutch( something I keep putting off) and have a good look at it then. I may find some bits in there.

I'll add a pic in a bit.

[Mk3iain]

A couple of pictures to illustrate...

 

[john1950]

Parts for these CAV starter motors are getting really hard to find, especially the return spring and internal switch. I have seen much worse pinions than yours still working.

[Mk3iain]

11 minutes ago, john1950 said:

Parts for these CAV starter motors are getting really hard to find, especially the return spring and internal switch. I have seen much worse pinions than yours still working.

The return spring and a plastic sleeve were in bits and lots of swarf.  I did notice the nuts holding it in position were not tight, not exactly loose but they could have allowed movement and the subsequent damage.

 

Wish I could remember who fixed it last time...

Edited July 15, 2022 by Mk3iain
Spelling..

[john1950]

I have recently gone through this problem with a similar starter on a HL4 lister. Eventually having to purchase a new one that I was lucky to find. Also trying to find parts to repair a spare, the local not young repairer is looking for parts and is confident he can get what he needs. If you cannot get yours repaired locally I have no doubt he could sort it for you. Getting it here and back would just need organising. 

[attleej]

I think we need to snap up every starter of this type that we see looking for a home.  I think the engine is a Perkins 4.236 and I expect there will be some lurking in light vehicles hidden in the under growth.  We will have to get more into making components for these accessories rather than just repair by repair..   For instance, I have successfully silver soldered new contacts onto a contactor for an electric forklift truck.

Finally, I think that we may have to resort to finding ways of fitting contemporary starters to certain engines.  We could change the pinion gear of the modern starter to suit the ring gear.  We would need to machine an adaptor plate.  Difficult, but not as difficult as you might think once reverse engineered.  The most obvious candidate for this approach is Cent starter motor which does not work well in any case.  Fortunately, it does not have a ring but reduction gears ins inside it. 

I will get onto it when I grow up and stop playing with tanks and tank transporters.

 

John

[Mk3iain]

John

It is indeed a 4.236 as used in many applications including tractors.  The classic tractor world is thriving, I once counted I think around 13 different tractor magazines in a local shop a few years ago.  This specific starter is available new for around £7-800, I am sure the last repair was about 1/4 of that for a new shaft etc.  It was a few years ago.

Price is most surely driven by availability and it is sad to hear of scarcity of parts.  This type of starter is reasonably common you would think there would be a load of parts available.

In the classic car world there are plenty of new alternatives for many cars including modern high torque, maybe ours is too small a market ? 

[Richard Farrant]

1 hour ago, attleej said:

I think we need to snap up every starter of this type that we see looking for a home.  I think the engine is a Perkins 4.236 and I expect there will be some lurking in light vehicles hidden in the under growth. 

 

Hi John,

I remember the 4.236 engine was fitted to the Massey Ferguson 175 tractor of the late 1960's. of course, it was a 12 volt system. Companies like Agriline sell new starters for around £300 for these tractors. It would not be a big problem to convert the Eager Beaver to 12v if it made it easier to keep the machine going at a lower cost. Of course you would need to double check the flywheel teeth are same number, etc. Just a thought!

Richard

[MatchFuzee]

There are a number of sites that cover using a 12v starter motor on a 24v battery, and others that cover using a 6v starter on a 12v battery. 

[Mk3iain]

On 7/15/2022 at 5:06 PM, Richard Farrant said:

Hi Ian,

if the pinion teeth are badly worn and this has happened before, it may be wise to inspect the flywheel teeth as they could be damaged. If you are looking through the hole where starter fits, go all the way around as engines sometimes tend to stop in one or to places so damage may be local.

I've had a good look as suggested and all the teeth are about 1- 2 mm worn at the near tip and all have a burr in that area.  I think a dressing with some emery cloth when I pull the clutch should see it Ok. I hope.

Needs a good clean out as well.

[Mk3iain]

On 7/15/2022 at 9:01 PM, john1950 said:

I have recently gone through this problem with a similar starter on a HL4 lister. Eventually having to purchase a new one that I was lucky to find. Also trying to find parts to repair a spare, the local not young repairer is looking for parts and is confident he can get what he needs. If you cannot get yours repaired locally I have no doubt he could sort it for you. Getting it here and back would just need organising. 

Thanks John, I may have sourced a pinion but so far the return spring and sleeve are proving hard to find as you noted.

 

If your local guy can source the parts I'll likely buy them.  I will have a go at stripping it down in case of any other problems.  I may end up sending it down, carriage should not be a problem. Hopefully...

[john1950]

There is a man up your way who may be able to help with a used unit, if you contact John Coats at Holly House Hire. He has a vast knowledge of used parts. It is a few years since I have spoken to him and I cannot put my hands on his phone number. I think the Leyland 0.400 used the same 24v starter. 

[Mk3iain]

Thanks John !

[david1212]

On 7/23/2022 at 1:32 PM, john1950 said:

........ I think the Leyland 0.400 used the same 24v starter. 

If so Reliance Bus Works in / around Stoke-on-Trent may be able to help through their contacts.

[Mk3iain]

I exchanged the motor for around £300 and it turns out it was an early marine type and has now been replaced by a newer version that does not need the spacer. It also seems closer to the motor listed in the parts catalogue.

Anyway, I've removed the clutch and flywheel to clean out the debris, change the clutch and check out the starter ring.

Has anyone changed the clutch on one of these before?  Can the (4 blade) plate be relined?  Described as a "13 inch AS type". Borg and Beck,  #54795TT

The only number for the housing I have is, 48446/20TT

 

Many thanks!

[john1950]

There are quite a few firms that will reline your plate. 

[andym]

That's not a damaged pinion, THIS is a damaged pinion ...  🙂

Andy

[Mk3iain]

20 hours ago, john1950 said:

There are quite a few firms that will reline your plate. 

I'll be calling around on Monday, I've two plates to reline now, the EB clutch and one from my Perentie.  I had thought a standard LR v8 plate from a Range Rover etc would be ok but the spigot bush sticks out further on the Isuzu and the LR plate will not clear it.  You can see the recess on the Perentie plate and the flat area on the LR plate, so unless someone knows or a suitable plate the old one will get relined.

Included, a picture of the EB plate.

 

 

[Mk3iain]

1 hour ago, andym said:

That's not a damaged pinion, THIS is a damaged pinion ...  🙂

Andy

Ouch, that must have made a noise!

 

I also lost the spring and plastic sleeve and on removing the flywheel removed evidence of maybe three sleeves and spring bits from its past...

Also, a picture of the motor to compare with the removed one showing the difference, this one not needing the spacer.

 

 

 

 

[7VHU]

Spring and sleeve don’t look too hard to make. Give me a shout if of interest.

Just finished making a new selector fork.

probably not too far away (Westhill)

Peter

[Mk3iain]

18 hours ago, 7VHU said:

Spring and sleeve don’t look too hard to make. Give me a shout if of interest.

Just finished making a new selector fork.

probably not too far away (Westhill)

Peter

Thanks Peter, I have a replacement motor now but you never know.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Mk3iain

[Mk3iain]

Does anyone know what the origin of the EB clutch housing is?  Is it Perkins, Bedford or something else?

The part number from the manual is 48446/20TT

It is scored and could do with replacing and the flywheel needs skimming as well.  Any recommendations for a machine shop in the North of Aberdeenshire?

 

Many thanks

Iain

[7VHU]

Hi Iain,

I’d recommend Agra engineering in Dundee (ok, not North Aberdeenshire…)

Or a friend with a “grown up” lathe. My Myford won’t do.

Alternatively a surface grinder.

Also could try Ted Riley Classics, Aberchirder.

Happy hunting : )

Peter