N.O.S. Posted June 23, 2008 Author Share Posted June 23, 2008 (edited) Some progress at last - 1) TRENCH MAPS I managed to get a 1/2 day at the National Archives Friday (thanks for your offer David, but it was a last-minute opportunity), and after having my biro confiscated and buying a pencil from the shop I was able to access the map room and eventually come face to face with some original trench maps! The poor copies which I posted a while back are in fact the only ones relevant to our search, but the originals make it easier to work out what's going on - so I've ordered some quality digital copies. Some maps I looked at give the names of each trench, but sadly ours show very little of that sort of info on them. I've also discovered how to interpret map co-ordinates of the time, like 5.16a.90/30 (see www.btinternet.com/~prosearch/tomspage13html ) 2) 1st Batallion Norfolk Regiment - their context within the British Forces The 1st Battalion Norfolk Regiment formed a unit of the 15th Infantry Brigade which, together with the 13th and 14th, formed the infantry of the 5th Division. The 5th and 3rd Divisions constituted the 2nd Corps. Other units of the 15th Infantry Brigade, who fought alongside the 1st Norfolks throughout the war, were the 1st Cheshires and 1st Bedfords. The 1st Dorset, in at the start, were replaced in 1915 by 6th Cheshire and 6th Liverpool until these two were replaced in 1916 by 16th Royal Warwickshire Regt. 3) More detail of Beugny Raid 2 SEP 1918 Realising that 1st Cheshire were fighting alongside the Norfolks on this day, I found a summary of their movements from an interesting website, www.stockport1914-1918.co.uk The following extract is taken from that site: The village of Beugny is some 10 kilometres north east of the French town of Bapaume. By this stage of the war, the German army was in retreat but was far from beaten. It was fighting carefully planned rear guard actions from prepared positions and it was known that the village was heavily defended. The Cheshires moved into position during the evening of 1 September, ready for the attack scheduled for 5.15 the next morning. The march up to the front line was, in itself, difficult as the guides lost their way and enemy planes were bombing close by. Just before the attack started, the enemy artillery opened fire. Captain L Ferguson wrote in his diary "The enemy guns opened on our trench and in less time that it takes to write had just about blown us to hell. Great big shells fell right into the trench, causing at least 50% casualties before we started. We also got sneezing gas and liquid fire mixed up with the H.E. I was uncertain what order to give.... but it was certain that if we stopped in the trench till 5.15 am none of us would be left to attack..... so I called to those who could hear me to get out and lie in "no man's land" till time was up. Shells were now falling like hail and I saw a number of fellows blown to bits....." When the order to advance was given, the Cheshires found that, although the British artillery fire had been heavy and accurate, German machine guns were still active. One company managed to enter the village but was forced out again by a counter attack. The Battalion consolidated overnight and Beugny was captured the next day by other units Another link with Beugny found was a site recounting the fate of soldiers from Blaira, in Gwent - a Lt. George Henry Adney MC was killed in action near Beugny on 2nd Sep 1918, aged 21. He served with 7th Tank Corps. So tanks were being used in the location at this time, but the Norfolk war diaries make no mention of this. I have requested a copy of the war diary entries from the Cheshire Regt. museum, but they do not have a complete set of diaries and I am waiting to hear if we are in luck. Hopefully they will give us more information on the raid. 4) The Significance of the Beugny Raid Found in 'The History of the Norfolk Regiment' by Petre is the following extract from battalion orders, which testifies to the conduct of the Norfolk men that day: "The divisional commander has asked the commanding officer to inform all ranks of the 1st battalion of the Norfolk Regiment how much he appreciated the extraordinary goodwork carried out by the battalion during the operation from August 21st to September 2nd. During this time the division has recaptured a depth of over fifteen miles of enemy territory, which is more than any other division in the whole army has been able to accomplish in the same time, and has captured an enormous amount of booty and prisoners. "During the operations near Beugny village on September 2nd the 1st battalion the Norfolk Regiment was the only battalion, out of three divisions, that reached the final objective in its entirety, and it was only due to the fact that the battalion held on throughout the night to the high ground south of the village that the village became untenable to the enemy, and he was forced to retire... The trouble is, we could go on and on finding new information, and I think we have enough now to paint a reasonable picture of the circumstances surrounding Jackson's last days. Hopefully the Cheshire records will yield a bit more detail, and we can then look at writing it up (where's that Rob Langham hiding?). More as and when :sweat: Edited June 24, 2008 by N.O.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted June 24, 2008 Share Posted June 24, 2008 The bit about 'Sneezing gas'and 'Liquid fire' is interesting. The Belgian EOD team gave a talk at Ieper last year. One of the shells he showed us had a high explosive filling with a gas canister inside. The liquid fire could be Napalm, it was developed about this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted June 24, 2008 Share Posted June 24, 2008 In case you anybody tries to follow up on the link to tanks through the officer mentioned he came from Blaina, Gwent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted June 24, 2008 Author Share Posted June 24, 2008 (edited) In case you anybody tries to follow up on the link to tanks through the officer mentioned he came from Blaina, Gwent Yes, well spellchecked Degsy! The actual link is www.hellfire-corner.demon.co.uk/Westlakeblaina.htm By the by, an interesting eyewitness account of tanks in action comes from The History of the Norfolk Regiment 1914 - 1918, and concerns the use of tanks in the capture in November 1917 by 9th Norfolk and 1st Leicester of a wide front of the Hindenbrg Line near Cambrai, which was very heavily wired. A crucial role of the tanks was to flatten out the wire sufficiently to allow infantry to pass freely. This is a partial account of the battle by Colonel Prior: "Everything was peaceful and still, and there was no indication of the inferno that was shortly to be set loose....The guns had opened before we got half way down the line, and the leading line of tanks, followed by the Leicesters, were crossing our trenches and starting across 'No Man's Land' - a wonderful spectacle in the half light of the early morning. Ponderous, grunting, groaning, wobbling, these engines of war crawled and lurched their way toward the enemy lines, followed by groups of men in line. Overhead our shells were pouring over.......but the slowness of those tanks! It is at these moments that one itches for quickness and rapidity, and the slow, deliberate action of these monsters is exasperating" Sounds like a good design brief to me! Edited June 24, 2008 by N.O.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick W Posted June 24, 2008 Share Posted June 24, 2008 Thats fine work NOS! Im fairly sure, though dont ask me why, that the Germans first used their tanks near Baupaume. Pic in a previous post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted July 1, 2008 Author Share Posted July 1, 2008 (edited) With the very kind assistance of a curator at the Cheshire Military Museum, I now have a copy of the typed (!) War Diary entry for he 1st Cheshire Regimant for September 2nd 1918. This adds a bit more light on the attack on Beugny. Sadly, as with Norfolks, there are no Cheshire 'Orders' for that day's Raid. 1918 September TRENCHES FAVREUIL 1st The battalion moved from FAVREUIL to an assembly position West of BEUGNY village. 2nd The Battalion was ordered to attack and capture BEUGNY village and occupy the high ground to the East of it – on a 1,500 yard front with the 1st Norfolks on the right and the 62nd Division on the left. Ten minutes before zero hour the enemy put down an extremely heavy barrage on the assembly position causing heavy casualties and putting most of the officers and N.C.Os out of action before the advance commenced. In spite of this however, the right Company(“A” Coy) under 2nd Lieut. J.D. PINGUEY, went on through the village, capturing several prisoners and succeeded in reaching their final objective in touch with the 1st NORFOLKS. The left Company advanced about 1,000 yards and were then held up by very heavy hostile machine gun fire which also held up the Division on the left. N enemy counter-attack later in the day drove back the left flank of “A” Company and the right flank of the 1st NORFOLKS, where there was a gap of about 500 yards between them and the NEW ZEALAND Division. An immediate counter-attack however re-established the position on the high ground held by the 1st NORFOLKS and the left was swung back through the western outskirts of the village. This position was held throughout the night. 3rd The 15th Infy.Bde. again attacked at dawn with the 1st BEDFORDS on right, 16th WARWICKS on left, 1st NORFOLKS and 1st CHESHIRES in support. The village of BEUGNY was successfully captured and the enemy who had withdrawn most of his troops during the night was followed up as far as VELU WOOD. In the evening the Brigade was withdrawn to reserve billets near BEUGNY. Edited July 1, 2008 by N.O.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick W Posted July 1, 2008 Share Posted July 1, 2008 Doesnt it mention casualties Tony? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted July 1, 2008 Author Share Posted July 1, 2008 Surprisingly no, as it was usual to list the names of officers and strpes casualties in the diaries. However the museum officer said she was disappointed that the entry was very brief for that day, the Cheshire diaries usually contained a lot more detail. I have transcibed the diary entry word for word. Guess it was a busy time, what with having the enemy on the run, and taking a lot of ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick W Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 I dont think you could get any closer than that, othe than being on the ground and being there and recreating the moves, taking pis etc. That would require someone going on holiday in the area, unfortunately not me , not this year anyway! Might be worth a look at the area on google earth or similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted July 2, 2008 Author Share Posted July 2, 2008 It's just a shame we cannot get a fix on the route taken. Compare with the Feb 1917 raid which details the exact movements with map references. Who knows, the info might be out there somewhere, but not enough time to search for it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ives Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 (edited) well as we are near enougth to what happened that night have you decided what to do with his headstone yet:-( the reason i ask is tommorow 2nd sept was the 90th aniversarry of his death:cry: and i for some reason went to a local war hero's grave (william sparks) and ended up standing by his grave for a minute then saluted Edited September 1, 2008 by David Ives Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted September 1, 2008 Author Share Posted September 1, 2008 Flipping heck David, that was a wake up call and a half - well done! Without your post I'm embarrassed to say I would have forgotten tomorrow. I'll pay a visit to the Thetford memorial. Mrs. N.O.S. beat me to remembering our wedding anniversary today as well.... I realised about 3 weeks ago that it was already far too late to get anything into magazine print for this year, and I'm still no further on with any better trench maps than those found and posted, but have one more thread to explore. I would really like to visit Beugny at some stage - could possibly do a day trip, or maybe one night if anyone is interested - but it would be good to get a better idea of the route taken before doing so. I will contact the local 'Mairie' to see if there is any local knowledge (as TonyB suggested). As yet we have no suitable resting place for the stone. The Thetford history teacher has retired this summer, without at least one positive school contact we cannot be sure the stone would be used in this context. I have yet to speak with Thetford RBL. I'm quite happy to keep it safe for now, but it needs a long term solution. I'm sorry I haven't found the time to resolve this yet, but please put my lack of progres into context with the fact that I haven't taken the GMC out since February, have not had a chance to prep and mot the Jeep since it ran out in May, and the Autocar hasn't turned a wheel since being delivered :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted November 11, 2008 Author Share Posted November 11, 2008 In a quiet corner of a forgotten field.... Had a duty at the local airfield 11.00am, so spent a quiet minute in the morning sun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ives Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 ok as im off to the somme tommorow hopefully i will be able to visit beugney myself and do a update picture of his grave as all other photos seem to have been lost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Lucky **** enjoy the trip. Safe journey and DON'T forget camera. :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snapper Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Have a great time Dave. Lots to see. We'll be interested to see your take on the place. The Somme is my favourite battlefield, but then I'm not picky! I was there in May and I need to be back out there ASAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted June 30, 2009 Author Share Posted June 30, 2009 Thanks David! Beugny, despite being an important supply depot and W.D. light railway junction, does not seem to have been photographed much during the war - or at least if it was I've been unable to track any pictures down. If anyone can offer any advice on how to go about searching for such photographs do please let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Bump - just so new members can read this thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted September 26, 2009 Share Posted September 26, 2009 Jack, don't sell yoursef or other forum members short on what is done for the living! The Help for Heroes and Normandy Vetran Assocation support shows how much members care and take responsobility. But for N.O.S. the stone could have ended up as some crushed agregate in a cement mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick W Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 Did we have a first name or regiment/service number for this so I can search NA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted November 9, 2009 Author Share Posted November 9, 2009 Jackson, Bernard Ivo 29539 Private 1st Battalion Norfolk Regiment, enrolled at Thetford KIA 02.09.18 Rick - I didn't search National Archive as I was able to source info direct from Norfolk Regiment Museum. I wonder what additional information might be gleaned from NA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 New information has come to light since this matter was last visited. Has the stone found a permenat home yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.O.S. Posted November 10, 2009 Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 If it had you would have certainly known about it, Tony. Meanwhile it is safe with me. A certain very thoughtful couple (no longer on here) gave me some poppy seeds to sow around the stone when I relocate it next year in our garden. Any info you'd care to share? All the information I have is on here. While we wait for some mysterious benefactor to bless the Regimental Museum with funding for more permanent display space, I ground to halt with the trench maps - I have not been able to find a detailed map showing names of trenches/local roads, in order to accuratley position the fateful action on 1st/2nd September. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick W Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 I done a search on the newly released NA service records, unfortunately nothing turned up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 Are they part of the Red Cross records released latley? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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