WW1 Peerless lorry restoration

[Great War truck]

The Sprocket has now been removed from the Back Wheel and has gone to the Sand Blaster.

The next job will be to remove the Brake Drum - this is fixed to the wheel with a total of 21 Coach Bolts - one through each of the 14 spokes and 7 through the hub. Those 7 actually also hold the hub to the wheel as well as holding the Brake Drum to the wheel..

All are heavily rusted. The 14 bolts can come out now but some care necessary with the 7 through the hub as we do not want the wheel falling apart. Starting with the outer ring, the remains of the first 5 nuts removed.

[Great War truck]

All 21 nuts holding the Brake Drum to the wheel now removed - hoped the Drum would just slide off the bolts which remained stuck in the wheel but only a slight crack appeared between the Drum and the wheel and the Drum remains firmly stuck.

None of the 21 bolts are orthodox Coach bolts as we know them with a square section under the cap but they have a tiny sharp bit in that "square" position presumably designed to dig into the wood to stop the bolt turning.

The larger seven centre bolts are 9/16" in diameter with an 18 tpi UNF thread and are 5 1/2" length.

The outer ring of 14 bolts are 3/8" in diameter and with an unidentified tpi at the moment.

Anyone know of a source of 9/16" diam Coach Bolts - 6" long?

[PITT24423]

Hello Tim

 

We use Dave Swaffield for our bolts https://historicthreads.co.uk/ all CNC small batches no problem ,near your HQ as well 

[radiomike7]

Could you get away with a 16mm x 150, head diameter would be circa 38mm?

[Minesweeper]

16mm is close enough - it is now just satisfying Steve wh is a Purist!

 

Tony

[andypugh]

34 minutes ago, Minesweeper said:

16mm is close enough - it is now just satisfying Steve who is a Purist!

When we needed some feather-edge coach bolts for the wings of the fire engine one of the club members (a famous loony) re-machined metric bolts. He used MNC, Manual Numeric Control, for the heads. He had a table of coordinates and dialled them in by hand on the lathe handles. 

M16 is 10/16" so I would imagine that you could find some 9/16 coach bolts hiding inside metric 16mm ones. 

M14 is slightly undersize for 9/16. And I rather expect that M14 coach bolts are rarer than 9/16. 

However M16 coach bolts are likely to be 2mm pitch, so I imagine that you would need to cut all the thread off of over-length ones to get a good thread. 

Alternatively, perhaps try the US, but again buying over-length and re-threading. 

https://www.fastenersclearinghouse.com/fastener-search=carriage-bolts&size=9/16-12&Cat1=PRM460D65E02814;&Cat2=FL3DCA0E45011;

[Alastair]

I have failed at this sort of thing because the coach bolt threads are rolled. The resultant thread is the correct size (16mm in this case) but the shank is undersize.

[Richard Farrant]

2 hours ago, andypugh said:

 

M16 is 10/16" so I would imagine that you could find some 9/16 coach bolts hiding inside metric 16mm ones. 

 

Surely 10/16" is commonly known as 5/8" ? 

  I still use Imperial measurements all day and have been in engineering for 53 years. When working on 80 year old British equipment I will not mix metric threads if at all possible (take that as never). 

[andypugh]

42 minutes ago, Richard Farrant said:

Surely 10/16" is commonly known as 5/8" ? 

It is, but stated the way I did I feel it makes it clearer that an M16 bolt has 1/16" of extra diameter to work with. 

(If I ask you what the difference is between 5/8 and 9/16 isn't the first thing that you do to double the 8ths?)

[IAN_B]

On 12/8/2020 at 9:24 AM, Richard Farrant said:

Surely 10/16" is commonly known as 5/8" ? 

  I still use Imperial measurements all day and have been in engineering for 53 years. When working on 80 year old British equipment I will not mix metric threads if at all possible (take that as never). 

On our small volunteer group's restoration of a 1918 International truck, we found it necessary to replace the castings that support the engine/gearbox subframe, which were rivetted to a cross member. The rivets were originally 3/8", and it was beyond our ability to re-rivet it, so we used 10mm bots that were a snug fit. Not one for the purists perhaps, but at least we have documented our action for posterity along FIVA guidelines.

[Minesweeper]

I think using nuts and bolts to replace the rivets is fair enough - in service in the field, if a rivet had to come out for whatever reason and be replaced, then it could be difficult to re-rivet away from a workshop and a nut and bolt would be an understandable and acceptable alternative!

Tony

[Gordon_M]

That was pretty much standard practice, but when time and resources allowed the hole would be reamed to the exact size of the replacement bolt, which was then forced into place to give a much stronger joint than an ordinary loose fit nut and bolt.

[Richard Farrant]

On 12/7/2020 at 11:08 PM, andypugh said:

It is, but stated the way I did I feel it makes it clearer that an M16 bolt has 1/16" of extra diameter to work with. 

(If I ask you what the difference is between 5/8 and 9/16 isn't the first thing that you do to double the 8ths?)

 

3 hours ago, IAN_B said:

On our small volunteer group's restoration of a 1918 International truck, we found it necessary to replace the castings that support the engine/gearbox subframe, which were rivetted to a cross member. The rivets were originally 3/8", and it was beyond our ability to re-rivet it, so we used 10mm bots that were a snug fit. Not one for the purists perhaps, but at least we have documented our action for posterity along FIVA guidelines.

The point I was making was that anyone working on a vehicle that was for example BSF / BSW threaded, then it makes it easier for others to maintain it if all original types of threads are employed. I remember when the Land Rover 90 and 110 came into military service and that had BSF, UNF and Metric threads on it. This is where problems happen.

[dgrev]

Richard,

Having 3 different standards of thread is beyond crazy.

What were they thinking?

Regards

Doug

[andypugh]

11 minutes ago, Richard Farrant said:

The point I was making was that anyone working on a vehicle that was for example BSF / BSW threaded, then it makes it easier for others to maintain it if all original types of threads are employed.

I don't know if you were replying to me, but you quoted my post so I assume so. 

I would never (well, almost never[1]) dream of using anything but an exact replica thread and fastener. 

What I was pointing out was that a correct imperial coach screw can be found inside the metric one if you peel it carefully. 

 

[1] The flywheel bolts on the 1916 Dennis currently have metric heads, but as they are prevented from rotating by machined flats rather than a spanner this is not a concern for assembly/disassembly. I used metric washer-faced bolts as a source of high-tensile steel of the right type and heat-treatment. 

[Richard Farrant]

7 minutes ago, andypugh said:

I don't know if you were replying to me, but you quoted my post so I assume so. 

I would never (well, almost never[1]) dream of using anything but an exact replica thread and fastener. 

What I was pointing out was that a correct imperial coach screw can be found inside the metric one if you peel it carefully. 

 

[1] The flywheel bolts on the 1916 Dennis currently have metric heads, but as they are prevented from rotating by machined flats rather than a spanner this is not a concern for assembly/disassembly. I used metric washer-faced bolts as a source of high-tensile steel of the right type and heat-treatment. 

Hi Andy,

My apologies, I was really replying to the thread in general and not specifically to you. Well done for retaining originality. I strive to do this as much as possible in my restoration work. Sometimes compromises have to be made if all else fails.

[Richard Farrant]

27 minutes ago, dgrev said:

Richard,

Having 3 different standards of thread is beyond crazy.

What were they thinking?

Regards

Doug

It was interim on the change over from Series 3 to the 90/110 and eventually the UNF threads were phased out as I recall.

[radiomike7]

2 hours ago, dgrev said:

Richard,

Having 3 different standards of thread is beyond crazy.

What were they thinking?

Regards

Doug

It still goes on, some clamp on battery terminals are 5/16" BSF and until fairly recently seat belt mountings had to be 7/16" UNF.  Tyres are another anomaly, the width is metric and the hole in the middle is imperial although in the 1980s Ford, Jaguar, Mercedes and various French cars used fully metric tyres on some models but it did not catch on.

Edited December 9, 2020 by radiomike7

[Bill Coates]

A bit of thread hi-jacking again....I'm not in the same league as you guys but I'm rebuilding a 1934 Singer car and have found a thread size I can't identify. It's 1" diameter 16tpi and just to confuse...is l/h!  Any ideas would be appreciated and I apologise again for butting in!

[andypugh]

12 minutes ago, Bill Coates said:

A bit of thread hi-jacking again....I'm not in the same league as you guys but I'm rebuilding a 1934 Singer

Ben has a Singer too: https://hmvf.co.uk/topic/30968-1914-dennis-lorry/?do=findComment&comment=461079

 

15 minutes ago, Bill Coates said:

have found a thread size I can't identify. It's 1" diameter 16tpi and just to confuse...is l/h! 

There is no requirement that any thread conform to any standard. Especially if LH. 
What you have was probably called out on the drawing just as "1in x 16 LH" and left at that. Possibly with a reference to a matching gauge. 
 

I don't see any candidate threads in this list here: http://www.bodgesoc.org/thread_dia_pitch.html

 

[radiomike7]

19 minutes ago, Bill Coates said:

A bit of thread hi-jacking again....I'm not in the same league as you guys but I'm rebuilding a 1934 Singer car and have found a thread size I can't identify. It's 1" diameter 16tpi and just to confuse...is l/h!  Any ideas would be appreciated and I apologise again for butting in!

Have you looked at 1" x 16 tpi UNS?  LH may be an issue.

[Old Bill]

26 minutes ago, Bill Coates said:

 and have found a thread size I can't identify. It's 1" diameter 16tpi in!

Hi Bill.

What fun! What do you wish to do with it? Do you just need a nut or a stud or what? It is a nice size to screw cut and I would be surprised if you wanted more than one!

Steve

[andypugh]

17 minutes ago, radiomike7 said:

Have you looked at 1" x 16 tpi UNS?  LH may be an issue.

It's probably worth trying to figure out the thread angle. There is a fair chance that a British car of that age would be using 55 degree Whitworth profile threads. 

Not that measuring a thread angle is particularly trivial. 

[Doc]

I agree: measuring the thread form (55 degree or 60 degree) is a good start. 1" x 16tpi RH is British Standard conduit thread. Is this on a tubular component by chance?

 Incidentally there's several 16 tpi whitform threads used on my Karrier. I understand this was a War Office specification. 

[andypugh]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

I agree: measuring the thread form (55 degree or 60 degree) is a good start.

Looking at the thread crests might be informative. Flat crests would indicate that it is _not_ Whitworth form. 

Rounded crests, unfortunately, just mean that it _might_ be Whitworth form at that time period.