question oil grade

[steve gpw]

hi guys can some one tell me what grade of oil i need for the front and rear axle's and gearbox and transfer box on my 42 gpw

[deadline]

Any modern 90W hypoid.. whatever brand you like.

 

The manual initially wanted just 90W gear oil in the tranny/trans and 90W EP in the diffs.

 

But modern EP gear oil is safe on yellow metal (brass synchro rings/bearing) so no worries.

[gas 44]

Any modern 90W hypoid.. whatever brand you like.

 

The manual initially wanted just 90W gear oil in the tranny/trans and 90W EP in the diffs.

 

But modern EP gear oil is safe on yellow metal (brass synchro rings/bearing) so no worries.

 

When I rebuilt my GPW gearbox, I was told by two highly respected restorers NOT to use ANY hypoid in gerabox/tranfer case.I used as instructed SAE110.

I'm no expert, so I just do/use as reccommended and I must say that my gearbox is as sweet as a nut....

I'm not sure about diffs, that comes later......

[arcot1751]

When I rebuilt my GPW gearbox, I was told by two highly respected restorers NOT to use ANY hypoid in gerabox/tranfer case.I used as instructed SAE110.

I'm no expert, so I just do/use as reccommended and I must say that my gearbox is as sweet as a nut....

I'm not sure about diffs, that comes later......

 

I was told ST90 :rolleyes: so that's what I have used with no issues. I get mine from the local Lambretta man :-D

[Richard Farrant]

The way I have always understood it is the synchromesh units work on friction to slow the gears, so using an extreme pressure gear oil is defeating the object. Hence why using a Straight 90 in the jeep gearbox, makes for better gear changes than if using EP90.

[deadline]

EP oil is not going interfere with synchro's.

 

The old (and it is a OLD) problem is that EP additives (sulfur and phosphorus) were used in places that generated to much heat, and in the presence of heat and water would make an acid and eat yellow metal. There are 'yellow metal' safe EP oils, but design changes also eliminated the high temps of the early gearboxes... so modern brass parts are safe.

 

The force required to make use of the EP additives is far and above the little bit or friction generated by the synchro's meshing.

 

Use the EP oil all around. It is not going to harm anything.

[datadawg]

EP oil is not going interfere with synchro's.

 

The old (and it is a OLD) problem is that EP additives (sulfur and phosphorus) were used in places that generated to much heat, and in the presence of heat and water would make an acid and eat yellow metal. There are 'yellow metal' safe EP oils, but design changes also eliminated the high temps of the early gearboxes... so modern brass parts are safe.

 

The force required to make use of the EP additives is far and above the little bit or friction generated by the synchro's meshing.

 

Use the EP oil all around. It is not going to harm anything.

This is very confusing. I thought EP90 was harmful to yellow metals unless it was GL4 spec, based on this 2015 article: http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf

You seem to say modern EP 90 is not a problem, but per above it might be. So who is right??

[Pete Ashby]

In the UK the market for lubricants for vintage and classic vehicles is well catered for. If you do a search on this forum you can see that the topic has been covered in detail.

Morris oils is a major supplier and has a wide range of products for the older vehicle.

 

In summery play safe, use straight 90 in your gearbox and transfer case, EP90 in the axles and straight 30 with no additives in the engine.

 

Pete

[Rangie]

In summery play safe, use straight 90 in your gearbox and transfer case, EP90 in the axles and straight 30 with no additives in the engine.

 

Pete

 

FULLY agree with the above comment. It's no more/less expensive either!

 

Alec

[rampant rivet]

In summery play safe, use straight 90 in your gearbox and transfer case, EP90 in the axles and straight 30 with no additives in the engine.

 

Pete

 

Ditto above

[Tony B]

I'd um (As usual) on the engine oil. I flushed both my Dodges engines through throughly and now run them on 20/50, by preference Halford's own. I've never had any problems with it. Though Gearbox and diffs I use recommended straight oils.

Try Rye oil, they are knowledgable, and friendly http://ryeoil.co.uk/ryeoilstore/

 

Modern lubricants are designed for high speed small tolerance engines, hence you can now get hundreds of horses out of a little engine. Our old work horses were designed to run on poor fuel and irregular quality lubricants, they are a lot more resilent than modern kit.

[deadline]

"In summery play safe, use straight 90 in your gearbox and transfer case, EP90 in the axles and straight 30 with no additives in the engine.

 

Pete"

 

That's just plain crazy talk... even original motors past 42 had detergent oil. 'Straight 30W with no additives' is mineral oil. Are you saying that we should run mineral oil and not a proven detergent oil? I'd don't call that safe, I call that an old wives tale.

 

Also, EP additives need two things to harm brass: high heat (250F is the magic number) and water. Heat and water combine with the sulphur to create acid that eats the brass (at running speeds the water should boil off like in an engine... its when you stop and get condensate that the acid is formed).

 

I'll leave with this tid bit: GL5 is used by the US Army in all M35a2's since the late 1980's. That's 30+ years of GL5 in synchronized transmissions. Absolutely no yellow metal issues have been incurred.

[Pete Ashby]

Deadline, I'm sorry I don't know your real name, I have no wish to get into an argument with you I think there may be an issue with English vs American terminology.

You are at liberty to put what ever lubricants you wish in your vehicles and I wish you well with that :-).

 

Regards......... or as as I believe you chaps over there say........ ' Have a Nice Day'

 

Pete

[deadline]

My given name is Paul.

 

If my previous post came across as combative that was not my intent... but jeeps and CCKWs did, for a time did use pretty much straight 30W mineral oil (as most pre-1940's cars did) and also detergent oil (aka 'additives'). So that was my confusion.

 

I know that everyone has a mentor they trust and will take the word of a trusted friend over some random internet post. But Copper Strip Corrosion ASTM D130 is the test for oils to determine if they are 'bad' for synchro's. The standard required immersion in the test fluid at 100C for 3 hours then the same copper strip is read. That is the science behind the oil rating. Now the GL5 spec doesn't require this test, but since its a standard most will do it. Feel free to read up on it.

 

There are many myths still running around... new oil formulations with low sulfur were wrecking camshafts (no, they were not.. cheap import cams were the problem) or old flat tappet motors were being wrecked due to low ZDDP level (no, flat tappet motors are still made and API oils protect them quite well) and two of my all time favorite: storing a crankshaft on its side will warp it (no, it won't) and any of the 'synthetic oil' myths.. there are just to many to list on that one.

 

But again, people will cling to a group mentality rather than find out the answers because their friends say they heard it form 'trusted mechanic' that 'had hundreds of similar cases'.

 

I've had GL5 oil in my jeep's tranny/transfer for over 5 years. my 1969 M35a2 had GL5 in it for over 20 years and the brass synchro's were fine. I am not worried in the least about the synchro's in my jeep.

[datadawg]

In the UK the market for lubricants for vintage and classic vehicles is well catered for. If you do a search on this forum you can see that the topic has been covered in detail.

Morris oils is a major supplier and has a wide range of products for the older vehicle.

 

In summery play safe, use straight 90 in your gearbox and transfer case, EP90 in the axles and straight 30 with no additives in the engine.

 

Pete

I have searched this topic for days and I have found so many different opinions, I don't know what to think. UK does seem to offer more choices, but I'm in US. And I have to figure out what to use for gear oil inside wheel hub of a British vehicle (Alvis Saracen). The manual specs OEP 220, which is obsolete, and shop that overhauled it in England says use EP90. From what I read, EP90 has GL4 and GL5 designations and GL4 seems to be "safer". I haven't found GL4 EP 90 readily available in stores, it can be ordered via specialty petroleum vendors, but it's a hassle. So I am not sure what to do...

Deadline (Paul) seems to say GL5 is fine, but he's talking about an American vehicle, not British armor. He's in Pennsylvania, close to me, so at least I feel like it's not some internet black hole giving out advice! Sigh... I am just terrified of making the wrong choice and then ripping my hair out later when something breaks.

[MatchFuzee]

Have you contacted any of the major American lubricant producers for advice?

[Richard Farrant]

I have searched this topic for days and I have found so many different opinions, I don't know what to think. UK does seem to offer more choices, but I'm in US. And I have to figure out what to use for gear oil inside wheel hub of a British vehicle (Alvis Saracen). The manual specs OEP 220, which is obsolete, and shop that overhauled it in England says use EP90. From what I read, EP90 has GL4 and GL5 designations and GL4 seems to be "safer". I haven't found GL4 EP 90 readily available in stores, it can be ordered via specialty petroleum vendors, but it's a hassle. So I am not sure what to do...

Deadline (Paul) seems to say GL5 is fine, but he's talking about an American vehicle, not British armor. He's in Pennsylvania, close to me, so at least I feel like it's not some internet black hole giving out advice! Sigh... I am just terrified of making the wrong choice and then ripping my hair out later when something breaks.

 

Hi,

I am well acquainted with both Saracen and military spec of oils, having worked for the military when Saracens were still in service, here is the full works;

The spec OEP220 is a British Army designation for 80w/90 gear oil, in the full description of this oil it says, I quote "This oil may not be suitable for use in systems containing gears or bearings made from copper alloys". Now as OEP220 was the listed gear oil for Saracen, Ferret, etc, (except in the Wilson gearbox, that has SAE30 engine oil), this tells you one thing, THERE IS NO YELLOW METAL in the Saracen drives, so you are free to use GL4 or 5 without issue. For anyone else, if the army spec was to use OEP220, then there is no issue regarding copper alloys.

 

To further help our US cousins to find the correct oil grade from their local suppliers, the NATO designation for OEP220 is O-226 and the US military designation is MIL-L-2105D 80W/90

[ruxy]

hi guys can some one tell me what grade of oil i need for the front and rear axle's and gearbox and transfer box on my 42 gpw

 

So , getting back to - 42 gpw , Dana 25 etc. early axles are Hypoid, a HYPOID oil is a EP (extreme pressure oil) with even more EP additives & anti-wear additives I believe too.

 

I doubt if during WW2 time-line there was the equiv. of a modern Hypoid oil , possibly EP gear oil ? BUt they probably just filled with a SAE engine grade depending on ambient - because life expectancy in combat was anticipated at 2 weeks (so some say)..

 

--

 

On Land Rovers , a Salisbury axle is Hypoid (normal on a S3 109" rear axle) , Rover axles are not hypoid type. From late 1970's the Repair Operation / User manuals for several makes suggested EP for gearboxes, swivel housings , axles etc. The two exceptions being Castrol & Duckhams and HYPOY was stated - so did these companies not do EP , Well - I used to buy containers of Castrol - both EP90 and Hypoy90B (no difference in price).

 

IMHO - defo Hypoid for a hypoid diff. that is modern and not of 75 year old design , because would I put a modern semi or synthetic gear oil / transaxle oil 75W/90 etc. in a 1970's classic car - probably not even though ISTR on a UNO Mk. 1 , Mk2 or Punto you would change this oil at 80,000 miles (or am I thinking of Peugeot/Citroen) , some cars with this type of oil - it is there for life LoL , well that is what they state.

[datadawg]

Hi,

I am well acquainted with both Saracen and military spec of oils, having worked for the military when Saracens were still in service, here is the full works;

The spec OEP220 is a British Army designation for 80w/90 gear oil, in the full description of this oil it says, I quote "This oil may not be suitable for use in systems containing gears or bearings made from copper alloys". Now as OEP220 was the listed gear oil for Saracen, Ferret, etc, (except in the Wilson gearbox, that has SAE30 engine oil), this tells you one thing, THERE IS NO YELLOW METAL in the Saracen drives, so you are free to use GL4 or 5 without issue. For anyone else, if the army spec was to use OEP220, then there is no issue regarding copper alloys.

 

To further help our US cousins to find the correct oil grade from their local suppliers, the NATO designation for OEP220 is O-226 and the US military designation is MIL-L-2105D 80W/90

Richard, this is great, thank you!

I found this writeup, straight from a lubricant manufacturer, that compares various grades, standards and specs of gear oil and discusses some military specs and their equivalent, hopefully this will help someone:

https://www.lubrizol.com/DrivelineAdditives/AutomotiveGearOil/GL5.html

[Lauren Child]

To be clear, Hypoid 80 and 90 were both in use at the end of the war. They were used in some applications that didn't need them as OC600 was in short supply.

 

Spec for both Hypoid and OEP220 requires it to have no deleterious effect on copper, but evidently something later highlighted a problem.

[ruxy]

http://www.millersoils.co.uk/automotive/classic-gearbox-oil.asp

 

By implication , Millers suggest yellow metal eating gear oil is out there , I doubt if this is a marketing ploy.

 

Obviously before a pour out , it pays to query the blender and ask his advise for a particular vehicle.

 

I think it was the Miller site that there was a more detailed "technical data note" on this subject , but I can't call it up.

[Lauren Child]

Funnily enough, I picked up an interesting note at Malvern -

 

General order no. 860 of 2nd July '43 changes the oil that is to be used in vehicles. Hypoid is for listed applications only.

 

For B vehicles this is live axles of -

certain Chev vehicles (Wa, KC, KE, C15, WB, KD, C8, C.4152 tipper),

Dodge all models,

Fargo all models,

all American passenger vehicles including jeeps, Lincoln and Zephyr, but excluding all Fords.

 

Hypoid axles are to be marked with a red bar on the casing. All vehicles that already have the marking but are not on the list are to be painted out. All vehicles that are on the list but have a red cross on a white background painted on the rear axle diff will have the upper and lower portion painted out to present a red bar (evidently an earlier Hypoid marking).

 

B vehicle engines and gearboxes were not to use Hypoid. The vast majority of vehicles types were not to use Hypoid.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Lauren Child

[Richard Farrant]

Funnily enough, I picked up an interesting note at Malvern -

 

General order no. 860 of 2nd July '43 changes the oil that is to be used in vehicles. Hypoid is for listed applications only.

 

For B vehicles this is live axles of -

certain Chev vehicles (Wa, KC, KE, C15, WB, KD, C8, C.4152 tipper),

Dodge all models,

Fargo all models,

all American passenger vehicles including jeeps, Lincoln and Zephyr, but excluding all Fords.

 

Hypoid axles are to be marked with a red bar on the casing. All vehicles that already have the marking but are not on the list are to be painted out. All vehicles that are on the list but have a red cross on a white background painted on the rear axle diff will have the upper and lower portion painted out to present a red bar (evidently an earlier Hypoid marking).

 

B vehicle engines and gearboxes were not to use Hypoid. The vast majority of vehicles types were not to use Hypoid.

 

Any vehicle with a worm and wheel drive axle would have had to remain using OC600, as we continued to do right through into the 1990's for certain vehicles and equipment in the Army.

[ruxy]

Copper Strip Corrosion Test , active sulfur being a problem additive for yellow metals.

 

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28958/ep-additives-effects

 

Don't forget , petrol engine SA oil is still around (some supermarkets have it in 20W/50 , in recent years reading the small print - I have found it on brands normally to SF/CC that is not obsolete , much is now SL/CF. SA would hardly be safe as a flush oil.

 

Early EP / Hypoy oils around WW2 would be based on fatty acids + lead + zink soaps with a few ground up metal additive extras , I doubt if such as MOS2 was one used , compared with modern stuff it is apples / oranges. Just because at the time they were called EP or Hypoy does not mean they fall withing present acceptable standard for such oil grades. Like using the words "turbine oil" you can't compare the stuff of today with that used 1970 , it will grade for grade take tons more load and last donkeys years longer.