WW1 Dennis truck find

[Minesweeper]

Tony,

 

I know that there are matting agents comercially available, but a quick and cheap way is to add talcun powder to the gloss paint. How much? Well that depends on what level of matt you need. It does talk a lot of powder to matt it down.

 

i have used this method on many of my paint jobs. It sprays well as well.

 

Try it by using a small tin of paint first.

regards Rick.

 

Many thanks, Rick!

 

Tony

[Stormin]

I would place the test panel of painted Matt finish outside to weather for a while as well to see what it is like for durablility. Whilst I guess that Talcum powder is probably correct for the period I also suspect matting with Talcum powder could soon lead to a chalky finish appearing. There must be other more durable compounds available for modern paints.

[Great War truck]

Tony had a go at the Generator with a liquid paint-stripper. It appears that it has been sand blasted at some time and just the one coat of that awful green put on it after the sand blasting.

 

The Radmore plates are of brass - not aluminum and they have suffered at the hands of the sand blaster.

 

The body and lid have been galvanised - hence no rust! It will paint up well enough to be safe in our hands.

 

You will see that the small plate was originally - and very generously fixed on with soft solder!

 

I have washed the whole thing down and will let it dry out thoroughly before I attempt to scrape the last bits of green off it - then the usual primer, undercoat and final green.

 

 

 

 

 

[Richard Peskett]

Ref. Matt paint saga !. I first was involved with this when we restored the WW1 Thornycroft 'J' mobile anti-aircraft gun for the Imperial War Museum in the late 1980s. Under various parts we found the original colour . In those days we always used ICI Coach Finish ( brushing) on vehicles and consequently had the colour matched and to be supplied matt. When the paint arrived it was gloss but invoiced separately were tins of matting agent. Ensuing enquiries revealed that the matting agent destroys the varnish and therefore weatherproofing in paint and ICI would not supply it as a whole for fear of a subsequent claim. Anyhow 1 to 1 is total matt, having tried this it marked with even rubbing your finger across it, so we eventually found a suitable mix proportion that gave the paint some protection but looked ok. I think when you see the lorry at Duxford today it still looks good after 23 years. The paint reference for the colour I think is still available from other manufacturers under our name. The Pierce-Arrow of Grundons and Daimler 'Y' type of Ronald Harris were both finished in my workshop using the same colour and matting agent mix.

Richard Peskett.

[Minesweeper]

That is interesting! When we bought the first lot of paint for the military Autocar some years ago, it was described as "Richard Peskett Brown" - which always amused us! I guess in the restoration business, having a paint named after you is equivalent to having a Rose named after you at the Chelsea Flower Show!

 

So what was the final ratio of the mix - you haven't said!

 

Tony

[Richard Peskett]

Matt paint: the final mix , well first point is to buy more than enough paint for the entire job, although mixed by suppliers to a spec. batches always vary slightly, experiment with the matting agent until it looks and dries out right, start with 2 parts finish to 1 matting, then add more matting, 1 to 1 is certainly too strong. Also remember the final colour is not that important as original the paint would have been made in a totally different way from today and without doubt there were great variations in shades and no body would have worried about that at the time. Somewhere I have the spec. of how to make the paint for WW1 US army, now virtually impossible to reproduce as some of the ingredients are probably illegal !

There are also matt or semi matt varnishes now available but again I suspect they are only intended for interior use.

Richard Peskett.

[Minesweeper]

Thanks, Richard, that is very helpful,

 

We have tried a matt varnish in the past - it looks OK initially but it is inclined to go white after a period and looks bad. We will not try that again!

 

Tony

[Great War truck]

Following the recent comments, advice and suggestions about painting with a matt paint, the Acetylene Generator has been painted in the following way to see how the paint holds up.

 

The Generator was stripped back to bare metal, thoroughly cleaned and the surplus soft solder around the smaller label was scraped away. The brass labels were then protected with masking tape. It was then given two coats of Bondaprimer - our usual primer which we think is very good. This was followed by one coat of grey Masons undercoat, then by one coat of the original glossy Masons paint - this was the paint that was provided in error when matt paint was ordered and mentioned in a previous note,

 

 

 

and then a final coat of the matt paint that we have mainly used on the Dennis.

 

 

 

 

The result looks OK but time now will tell!

[bobs1918]

Matt paint: the final mix , well first point is to buy more than enough paint for the entire job, although mixed by suppliers to a spec. batches always vary slightly, experiment with the matting agent until it looks and dries out right, start with 2 parts finish to 1 matting, then add more matting, 1 to 1 is certainly too strong. Also remember the final colour is not that important as original the paint would have been made in a totally different way from today and without doubt there were great variations in shades and no body would have worried about that at the time. Somewhere I have the spec. of how to make the paint for WW1 US army, now virtually impossible to reproduce as some of the ingredients are probably illegal !

There are also matt or semi matt varnishes now available but again I suspect they are only intended for interior use.

Richard Peskett.

Hello Richard, First my apologies for hijacking this most incredible thread. I am finishing the restoration of a US Army model 1918 Light Repair Truck. I am having the most difficult time with getting a paint color that seems "right" Any chance that you could share what you have on the US Army ww 1 paint??? Thanks bob

Here is a link to that vehicle in its present color http://www.globalarray.net/user/bobspics/fdr2011a.JPG

[Roy Larkin]

OK, so what kept you?

 

Whilst I fully appreciate the efforts put into your Dennis, and the others done previously, I can't help wonder if there has been some dallying with its progress.

 

Admittedly the ASC Repair Shop at St Omer employed 943 personnel in May 1916, but they did manage to completely overhaul 27 lorries, 81 cars and 136 motorcycles and also fitted in garage repairs on 1 lorry and 14 cars during the month whilst ducking out of the way of bombs dropped by enemy aircraft. Did you have that problem in Devon?

 

Given that a complete overhaul was a complete strip down and full nut and bolt rebuild including cabs and bodies, (if they didn't meet the maker's original specification in all respects, they weren't passed as fit by the testers) and involved parts manufacture due to shortages from manufacturers, I think you should step up the pace on the next one a bit.

[Minesweeper]

Well, that did make me laugh, Roy! We have certainly found out that every job seems to have taken a lot longer that we anticipated that it would. We still have some final jobs to finish on the Dennis, but the pressure has been "off" with the "Brighton" out of the way, so we have been relaxing and doing other things. The next run will be to the "Honiton Hill" Rally in August and that will probably be it for the year.

 

As you will have guessed, our minds have been working on the next project - which will be the Thornycroft "J". We still do not have a "diff" for it and that is the worry. But we shall "crack on", nevertheless in the hope that one will turn up as it did for the Dennis. We thought that we would do the engine on this one first as that is already in the Lorry Shed - so it will not be the case of trying to find more room for another chasis initially. One of the lorries in there when we get to that stage will have to be found another home!

 

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

OK, so what kept you?

 

Whilst I fully appreciate the efforts put into your Dennis, and the others done previously, I can't help wonder if there has been some dallying with its progress.

 

Admittedly the ASC Repair Shop at St Omer employed 943 personnel in May 1916, but they did manage to completely overhaul 27 lorries, 81 cars and 136 motorcycles and also fitted in garage repairs on 1 lorry and 14 cars during the month whilst ducking out of the way of bombs dropped by enemy aircraft. Did you have that problem in Devon?

 

Given that a complete overhaul was a complete strip down and full nut and bolt rebuild including cabs and bodies, (if they didn't meet the maker's original specification in all respects, they weren't passed as fit by the testers) and involved parts manufacture due to shortages from manufacturers, I think you should step up the pace on the next one a bit.

[Stormin]

...One of the lorries in there when we get to that stage will have to be found another home!

 

Tony

 

Now I see the reason for the question and thread regarding selling / loaning a vehicle to a museum.

 

Much as I'm looking forward to another restoration thread on the Thorny, much like this one please don't rush into parting with one of your trucks. Whilst a museum may the best way in some ways of preserving your restored vehicle no-one is likely to appreciate and take care of the vehicle in quite the same way as the person who has spent many hundreds of hours restoring it.

Although you can have too many vehicles to make adequate use of them, I hope you find some way to accommodate all the old and past projects. Have you considered extending the existing store? How about finding other secure storage nearby? Any other friends or family have room to provide storage?

[Minesweeper]

Never fear - nothing is going to leave us! The immediate plan is to do the Thorny engine as we can cope with that and the existing lorries in the present accommodation! We have talked about Steve building some kind of shed at his place which will be big enough to take the FWD - that is much shorter than the Dennis or the Thorny - so that might be on. Our friend Roly has identified some good storage near him and that could be on - but there is no immediate need to rush for that.

 

We certainly do not intend to part with any of them!

 

Tony

[Minesweeper]

Just to add to that - really about Museums which I think was something that Tim started - and I think that he was looking a long way ahead! At least, I hope he was.

 

Museums can be wonderful - but as soon as you part with something, you lose control of it. Some years ago, a very friendly museum - good friends always and still are - were short of two particular wheels. We had two spares and were very happy to give them to them. On our two wheels were very good solid tyres and the deal was that they would take the tyres off and return them to us as they had new tyres which they were going to fit to the wheels that we gave to them.

 

After a period,we enquired about our tyres, only to learn - "Oh sorry, we didn't know that you wanted them back and we had to cut them to get them off............."

 

Original good solid tyres are hard to come by and we were very upset about it - so it does make you think twice.

 

Barry (Asciidv) may want to add to this from a recent experience that he encountered - but I leave that to him!

 

I guess that one problem that you might encounter in dealing with them is that there is often a change in management/personnel over a period and any successor may not know what their predecessors agreed - especially if no written agreement is made.

 

Tony

[8_10 Brass Cleaner]

Just to add to that - really about Museums which I think was something that Tim started - and I think that he was looking a long way ahead! At least, I hope he was.

 

Museums can be wonderful - but as soon as you part with something, you lose control of it. Some years ago, a very friendly museum - good friends always and still are - were short of two particular wheels. We had two spares and were very happy to give them to them. On our two wheels were very good solid tyres and the deal was that they would take the tyres off and return them to us as they had new tyres which they were going to fit to the wheels that we gave to them.

 

After a period,we enquired about our tyres, only to learn - "Oh sorry, we didn't know that you wanted them back and we had to cut them to get them off............."

 

Original good solid tyres are hard to come by and we were very upset about it - so it does make you think twice.

 

Barry (Asciidv) may want to add to this from a recent experience that he encountered - but I leave that to him!

 

I guess that one problem that you might encounter in dealing with them is that there is often a change in management/personnel over a period and any successor may not know what their predecessors agreed - especially if no written agreement is made.

 

Tony

 

Tony,

 

My experiance is similar. The personnel make the world of difference.

 

Brother in Law used to work for Leicestershire Museums service, and while with them got their Marshall steam tractor into working order. Once he left nothing happened to it. Some years later myself, him and a few others tried to negotiate a loan.

 

I inspected it for condition and historical accuracy, wrote a report and submitted it. I know a far bit about it, in its previous life many parts off our similar engine were borrowed to copy for theirs, I have correspondance with two previous owners etc. Seemingly 'we' as a group knew more about it than the 'museum' who own it, judging from the responce we got. It was not a goe-er in the end.

 

On the other hand last august I got involved by the brother in law in the removal from the Science museum store at Wroughton of their McLaren Traction engine so it could attend the Great Dorset Steam Fair, basically the guys over there lacked the competence (or perhaps the confidence) to do it, but were keen to have guidance of someone who did. Brother in law (who is a curator in the National Railway museum) and I, both engine owners did it for them, showed them how to lubricate it ect, not rocket science but it avoided scored beaings etc. After our guidance they took care of putting it back themselves.

 

I also noticed when I was there that when they moved the old worm drive trucks in the collection they used roller skates under the rear wheels to avoid damaged axles. Very good.

 

I did laugh however, on arrival we got the full induction, que all the bullsh1t, heritage insulation (asbestos) and all. I stood on the engine, opened the toolbox to see what was in it as we needed a tow pin (the one I brought with me was too thick) and found two loose asbestos boiler door joints. HA HA, that was nicely 'managed' many thanks!.

[Great War truck]

You may recall that we wrote about the Radiator in earlier notes where despite our best efforts to repair and seal the original aluminium tanks, more leaks in them became apparent just prior to the Brighton Run - but we saved the day by drilling and tapping some of the leaks for screws and other slight "weeps" in the aluminium were sealed with a plastic metal. These have held out OK - but we are resolved now to have new top and bottom tanks cast to eliminate the problem of leaks once for all - this will be done later after the season but again, it will be back to pattern making.

 

Another part of the radiator which was concerning was the threaded hole in the bottom tank to take the Drain Tap - which is a rather nice brass fitting. The thread in the aluminium was so corroded that we thought that there might be a danger of losing the Drain Tap as it was not possible to screw that in really tight. The hole was threaded 3/8" BSP to take the Drain Tap.

 

As an interim measure we have re-tapped that threaded hole 3/4" BSF and will make up a Bronze Plug to go in it as a temporary seal. When the new tank becomes available, we we will tap the drain hole in that one 3/8"BSP to take the correct Brass Tap, but the Plug will be a good and safe fit and that will eliminate that potential danger for the time being.

 

 

[Great War truck]

You may remember we lost an original brass Dennis plate off one of the hubcaps when we did the London to Brighton. The replacements have just been done:

 

 

Not by us i must say, but by Diane Carney ( http://www.loco-nameplates.co.uk ) who does this sort of thing. As you can see we thought it a good idea to get more than one made in case we lose another one.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Great War truck

[Old Bill]

Diane Carney makes plates for miniature steam locomotives mainly but has done quite a few for us over the years. Her work is superb and she is always pleased to look at any job. She either works to our artwork or produces it for us. The artwork for these plates was produced by another good friend, Andy, who makes maps and charts for a living. Fortunately, we have a photograph of the missing plate so he used that to produce a pdf file after creating it with 'Coreldraw'. He emailed the file to me and I sent it to Diane on disc. A lot of this hobby is knowing who to ask!

 

Steve :-)

 

 

[BosunAl]

This has been a wonderful thread and a real pleasure to see the progress on this wonderful vehicle. I have only one question . . . what font did you use when applying the ID numbers?

 

Thanks

 

Bosun Al

[Old Bill]

Hi Al.

 

What a splendid question! It is amazing how many subjects this exercise has turned up! I can't give you a definitive answer unfortunately but this is how it came about. We have two photographs of New Zealand Division Dennis lorries so we picked an ID number a few away from one of them. Then we sent a scan of the picture it to our cartographer friend Andy who very kindly digitised the numbers and laid them out full size for the signwriter. He copied the font exactly but cursed because it was completely non-standard and he had to modify something similar to match it. The signwriter used Andy's print to lay out the numbers on the bonnet but then said 'I don't like that' and did his own thing!

 

The army specified a height for the numbers but not the font so when you look through the old photos they are all sorts of styles. Now the US Army provided stencils so they are all lettered the same way and look very similar to those used in WW2.

 

I'm afraid that doesn't help you much but it does mean that you can't get it wrong! What is your particular interest?

 

Steve

[Great War truck]

A couple of weeks ago, Steve went down to Devon and managed to tidy up a few odds and ends as we have seen. However, his main reason for the visit was to have a look at the ignition and see if we could resolve the starting difficulties. At the end of our one and only run so far, we thought that the lorry felt a little underpowered and wondered whether the ignition was a bit retarded. Steve therefore started off by carefully turning the engine slowly past TDC and checking when the points opened using a 'Rizla' cigarette paper caught between them. The manual states that the points should open exactly on TDC when the magneto is fully retarded and this proved to be the case. However, closer inspection of the advance linkage showed that the geometry is not ideal and that the bell crank is almost a straight line with the actuating rod at full advance. You can see this in the bottom RH corner of the photo

 

 

This gives quite a lot of backlash preventing full advance from being reached. He will have a look at this the next time he visits as those last few degrees might make a noticeable difference.

 

In the mean time, we have been investigating the use of impulse starters. Steve has been very kindly loaned a Simms magneto which is set up for an impulse start

 

 

 

and a Simms impulse starter.

 

 

 

The mechanism is installed within the shroud and is operated by the catch that you can see inside. The casing of the mechanism is connected to the trigger plate by a clock type spring.

 

 

In operation, the vernier coupling with all of the teeth is rotated by the engine turning the magneto until one of the trigger arms reaches the top and falls onto the catch where it is held, stopping the drive. The casing continues to rotate, winding the spring, until the flat on its side reaches the trigger arm, tipping it and releasing the mechanism. The spring then unwinds giving the magneto a sharp flick producing a good spark in spite of the low engine speed. This is an ideal solution but unfortunately, when Steve took a closer look at our magneto, he found that there is no provision to mount the device.

 

 

This is a bit of a blow so we can't do anything for the time being. However, our spare mag does have the requisite screw holes so once that is back from the magneto specialist, we will be able to take another look and see about fitting something.

 

The difficulty now is that we don't have a Simms impulse starter of our own so Steve will have to make one up. The bulk of it doesn't faze him but he is unsure how to make the spring. The main wind is no problem but there are eyes rolled in the ends only 1/8" diameter. Can anyone offer any suggestions as to how to do that? It may be a professional job or even wait until one turns up but we do hate to be beaten!

[8_10 Brass Cleaner]

Tested spring Company in Tividale, Birmingham. They'd help with the spring.

[mattinker]

Hi,

 

"The spring then unwinds giving the magneto a sharp flick producing a good spark in spite of the low engine speed."

 

I would like to point out that magnetos put out a high spark at low speeds, with low speed engines, this was not normally a problem. The coil ignition was introduced to have a better spark higher up the range. When coils were first introduced, a mixed system was often used, both coil and magneto. I am not surprised you have a good spark at low engine speeds! I can't help wondering if the compression is too high! I know I've said it before, but de-compressors were standard at the time. (I've seen a "Gardner" diesel started by one man with a crank) Your engine "bump" starts, not good for the worm! You just can't get it to turn by hand to overcome the compression. It maybe has non standard pistons for pump duty, to run on later fuel. Unfortunately, it's difficult to do a compression test without a starter motor.

 

In the video of the engine running for the first time, you were all surprised by the low tick-over. This is a long stroke high inertia engine with a lot of turning mass, getting that mass to turn with compression by hand is hard!

 

Good luck! Matthew

[David Herbert]

Refering to the task of making the eyes on the end of the recoil spring, about 17 years ago a vaguely similar spring in the starter pinion of my IH td18 tractor broke its eye. This spring acts as a shock absorber when the pinion engages and takes the full torque of the starter - there is I think a similar one in an International half track. As the tractor needed to be moved and I had nothing to lose I removed the spring, heated the broken end, rolled a new eye while red hot and then let it cool in air. I was not convinced it would work at all but it did and although I now have a new one in the 'stores' the one I repaired is still on the tractor. I would not do this on anything safety critical but it is worth trying and you need to work quickly so that only the eye gets annealed. Actually most small springs are formed cold ( but very quickly - which makes a difference ) but obviously there are limits. Good luck.

 

David

[Asciidv]

"The spring then unwinds giving the magneto a sharp flick producing a good spark in spite of the low engine speed."

 

I would like to point out that magnetos put out a high spark at low speeds"

 

Mathew I don't know whether you are talking in relative terms or absolute terms, but magnetos do produce a poorer spark at low RPM than they do at high RPM, hence the need for an impulse starter. It is all to do with the rate of cutting the magnetic lines of flux. The faster you turn, the greater the rate of cutting, resulting in a larger emf (Faraday's Law). You have to achieve a certain level of voltage before the air gap will break down and a spark is formed. Magnetos do start to fizzle out at very high revs (perhaps greater than 8000 rpm) but this is far in excess of the speeds of the engines which we are concerned with.

 

 

Barry.